N18 40K Open Day Necromunda Panel

Well said. I can’t figure out the rules quibbling from a boutique narrative game from a small development studio. If your group doesn’t like a rule, just change it! What’s so hard about that. Same principle with the minis.
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I love you guys, but Spyers, Redemptionists, civilians, conversions, and Ash Wastes?

Spyers (Confrontation's Hive Brats) were a dumb, rule-breaking gang that were fun to play, but un-fun to play against. Besides, have you seen the Black Market Trading Post? You bring Spyers, and I'll bring a House Gang with wonder weapons and wacky wargear that will destroy you. Unless Spyers are even more over-the-top.

Redemptionists? I loved'em, and I've still got'em. Scavvies, too. But, modern Cawdor has them both covered (fire and scavenging). Cawdor can literally set a ZM tile or SM piece of terrain on fire. Scavvies advantage of numbers of cheap troops doesn't work with the modern game's limited roster scenarios.

Civilians? Y'all think there is a GW customer market for unarmed miniatures? For what? To be shot up and blown up? You want "sure to be victims" miniatures for civilian children and mom's pushing baby carriages, too? I'm not feeling it. True confession, for Hive Dwellers, I use my armed Scavvies I painted 20+ years ago.

Conversions. Anyone who was inspired for a lifetime of converting miniatures by the original single piece metal miniatures is a masochist. Besides, speaking of masochists, FW already has that covered, at NO small expense.

Ah, the Ash Wastes. Back in the day, a buddy and I took on re-writing the original fan-written Ash Waste rules that first appeared in a series of Necromunda magazines . Those rules as written were flawed. They didn't work well, and encouraged building a single tank-transport. We tried to meld the best of Gorkamorka with the then current 40K vehicle and bike and riding-beast rules. Plus, a little of an Old West miniature game which was then semi-popular in our gaming circle. We built, converted, and play tested with friends,. The hard part is mixing accurate, hard-hitting long range weapons with fragile humans in a near featureless desert setting. And, upgrading vehicles without replacing them. But, still being able to downgrade them for the next campaign.

In the end, I wrote the beasties chapter. Then, my friend went off the deep end, and I dropped out. He ended up with a 100+ page fan-written monstrosity which is still on the internet, last I checked. Those rules worked. But, I don't know how much folks wanted them. I know Gorkamorka bombed. I don't know that Speed Freeks rewrote the book on vehicle combat. And, I'm not sure about a new Ash Wastes. Mad Max is a character, but the movies are centered around vehicle combat. That's a whole different game. I'm sure it can be done. But, I'm also sure it has to be done right. Not just a book of cool ideas and campaign modifications. It would have to be a big boxed set with vehicles, terrain, and a dedicated rule-book.
So.... you’re speculating that 2020 will see an Ash Wastes boxed expansion? that would be totally sweet. Imagine the conversion fodder from a set like that.
From what has been shown and what has been said, I think an Ash Wastes expansion is inevitable. If not for 2020, then for 2021.
However, I don't know if we should expect rules for vehicles, as the AWN concept art didn't have any (they seem to use an assortment of mutant creatures for transportation instead)

As for Spyrers and Scavvies, I'm not saying they will happen for sure, but I wouldn't lose hope on them on the sole basis of their previous incarnation. They have reimagined every single returning gang, why should we assume Spyrers or Scavvies to be any different?
Spyrers don't have to keep their rigid gang composition and wargear rules (Enforcers didn't). The suits could become status items (reserved to Leader and Champions) and their ganger equivalent could either be less fortunate nobles, loyal servants, or local hired help (venator hunters).
If CGC proved anything, it's that the writers are fine with adding crazy special rules if they want to make a specific gang work. Scavvies could, for instance, get a special rule so that a pair of gangers count as a single fighter when selecting a crew, and they could get a gang-wide credit limit on the stuff they can equip (similar to the juve 20 cred limit).

Redemptionists and Ratskins, on the other hand, are probably too problematic to ever be brought back in miniature form. It's nice that we now have official confirmation that it is indeed an issue (even though the redesign of Mr Pointy-hat Mc Cawdor already kinda confirmed it.)
I think you've missed the point. I'm going to just put this one message here so if you have, you'll be in the know, if you were aware and ignored it for the sake of making your point, that's fine too (I'll disagree with you, but you are free to have that opinion). Either way, so as not to derail this thread, the following comment will require no follow up, if you do want to discuss further, please pm me.

The PC references are not to a post apoc type world, setting, other. PG rating or otherwise is as much as you make of it too. The PC reference is to do with primarily ratskins (not mentioned here), and redemptionists. The redemptionists are due to their heavy similarities in imagery and (parts of) their backstory with the kkk who are a real world group. To the best of my knowledge there are no cannibal cults in recent history/present that could have anywhere close to an analogue with the corpse grinder cult, slave guilds are such a generic group there is less issue etc etc. Whereas the kkk links (or native ameican stereotypes for the ratskins) is a modern day group that means using certain imagery could well cause offence.
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As for the miniature side of things... well, converting is not for everyone. It's nice that Necromunda encourages conversions (as opposed to 40k where the load-out options are strictly limited to what can be built by following the instructions, more often than not to absurd extents) but in this day and age you'd expect Geedubs to at least provide official models for all the basic options. Otherwise, it creates an unnecessary barrier to entry for all the little Timmies out there.
Barriers for Timmy are a good thing (we're talking Magic the Gathering Timmies right?).

Something interesting on the 40k conversion front, they recently introduced Legends. Its a collection of rules and points for discontinued models so that people can use them in open games, or tournaments where they are allowed. I can see these inspiring conversions fo folks without the old models!
Link to GW site
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Necromunda Elitism
Call me a hater, but I'm happy that the bar to entry for Necromunda keeps out Timmies. I feel that Necromunda tries to prioritize the rules with a strong preference toward being faithful to the lore/fluff. This means that game balance is a secondary concern for Necromunda. As a result, Necromunda allows players who want to make broken and abusive gangs. For these reasons, I feel that you need to choose your fellow Necromunda players carefully, they need to "get it." One upshot of this is that the Win-At-All-Costs tournament troglodytes have no interest in playing Necromunda, which I consider one of the best features of the game.
Surely, there must be a better way to discourage those kinds of players than making a broken, unbalanced, poorly vetted set of rules?

I'm absolutely in agreement with what's been said already - that you can fix the truly broken aspects of the game yourself between you and your friends, mutual agreements encourage good player behaviour, and that focusing on the narrative aspects is the game's ultimate goal. House Rules are as much a tradition in hobby wargaming as model conversions.

I'd still prefer a base game that was more functional and better balanced. I imagine so would a lot of players, especially ones new to the game or the hobby - we want to encourage good players to join, as much as discourage the bad. That the rules seem to push away a certain subset of people I would consider at best a happy side-effect, rather than something to justify the state of the game.
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Barriers for Timmy are a good thing (we're talking Magic the Gathering Timmies right?).
Well, not this time. It was just little Timmy, your typical 12 years old who is just getting started into the hobby (and who a lot of us were 20 years ago). How is he supposed to tackle something as unnecessarily complex as Neomunda?

If we are talking MtG Timmy, then Necromunda is pretty much 100% a Timmy game already. Timmy is the opposite of the WAAC player.
I guess I need to brush up on my MTG player archetypes. I thought Timmies were people who like big power combos, Johnnys were... hmm, I have no idea what I'm talking about!
This might help
  • Timmy plays to experience something. Sure, sometimes it means bringing as many Lascannons as you can and giggling like crazy when they finally vaporize something, but it also means they are the most likely to enjoy the wackiness of the game, the random tables, drinking beer tea with their opponent, etc.
  • Johnny plays to express something. That will probably be more apparent looking at how they converted their gang, but they could also come up with original gang lists or strategies.
  • Spike plays to prove something. They play to win and/or to improve themself, but it doesn't mean they have to be a WAAC player or a rules-lawyer. They probably won't enjoy Necromunda for long since the game comes pre-broken.
There are good and bad people in all 3 categories, so having a broken ruleset that keeps away the Spikes is really not something to be happy about imo.
Well it’s a bit er....argumentative round these parts isn’t it!

I’ll bite - Only those willing to build their own faction complete with extensive fluff, using parts from random not even GW kits, assemble a full board of scenery from household products and keep a long dead game alive for 20 years are REAL Necromunda players......

Or alternatively that’s all space balls, I suppose my point is we all like different aspects but we all love the hobby or you wouldn’t be here, just have fun, GW keep releasing great kits and this is a great community (that will even one day fix the shoddy new rules, maybe)

Love Clockwork.
Ork's not getting pinned like some panzy grot helped as well.
No, he is saying that you don’t want current geedubz making rules for transport cuz it would a mess of imbalanced houserules and overpowered unplayable crap. And I agree with him. They produce rules too fast
Well I guess I'm 50% Timmy/Johnny, who will occasionally act like Spike on a bad day, but apologize profusely while doing so.