Adding / Removing wargear during campaign

[YellowSkin]

Our campaign group is currently having a discussion about the adding / removing of weapons for gangers and juves. The way we read the rules is that you are not allowed to remove any wargear (incl. weapons, grenades etc) but are free to add wargear (as long as you adhere to the wargear limitations).

Is our interpretation correct?

 

[SirMattius]

That's about right.
Technically you can't remove stuff from champs and leaders either, not to sell or reequip. You have card load outs for that.

 

[enyoss]

That's about right.
Technically you can't remove stuff from champs and leaders either, not to sell or reequip. You have card load outs for that.

Although done through their inefficient, yet preferred, medium - FaceBook - the games designers did actually address this, stating that the rules as intended were for leaders, champs and juves to be able to unequip anything they wanted to the stash, as well as having multiple fighter cards if you want.

 

[autoxidation]

Although done through their inefficient, yet preferred, medium - FaceBook - the games designers did actually address this, stating that the rules as intended were for leaders, champs and juves to be able to unequip anything they wanted to the stash, as well as having multiple fighter cards if you want.

That kind of breaks campaigns, doesn't it? If those fighters can freely remove wargear and weapons at any time, they can offload those items to the stash to reduce the gang rating below the 2000/3000 limit after Apotheosis, then just freely re-equip them after the first battle of the cycle.

Or am I missing something here?

 

[YellowSkin]

That kind of breaks campaigns, doesn't it? If those fighters can freely remove wargear and weapons at any time, they can offload those items to the stash to reduce the gang rating below the 2000/3000 limit after Apotheosis, then just freely re-equip them after the first battle of the cycle.

Or am I missing something here?

Luckily we don't have people in the campaign that seek to WAAC. I posted the same question on facebook and it seems the community differs with regard to opinion I think.

The way we will houserule it is that once equipment has been assigned, no removal of wargear can take place anymore. Additions can happen tho.

 

[Whiysper]

That kind of breaks campaigns, doesn't it? If those fighters can freely remove wargear and weapons at any time, they can offload those items to the stash to reduce the gang rating below the 2000/3000 limit after Apotheosis, then just freely re-equip them after the first battle of the cycle.

Or am I missing something here?

retiring fighters leave their gear in your stash anyway, so even during Apotheosis, you just retire the fighters with the least XP, their gear hits your stash, and after the first game you hire them back for their naked cost. So yes, you can probably avoid that if you're removing gear from people outside the 'distrbute gear' step, but in any case Apotheosis is far less harsh than you're thinking it is, because while I expect they intended for the fighters to walk with their gear - that's not what the rules they actually printed tell you to do.

 

[Thorgor]

The way we will houserule it is that once equipment has been assigned, no removal of wargear can take place anymore. Additions can happen tho.

You need to allow at least for armour to be moved to the stash, otherwise you can never buy a better armour for a fighter, since they can't have several armours at once. And once you have made this necessary exception for armour, the 'put away the clipper' rule is even harder to justify for the rest.

The end-of-turf-war shenanigans discussed above are the result of the gang rating trying to do two different things at once and failing at both. There should be two separate values: a gang rating (cumulated value of everything the gang owns, including credits, items in the stash and special territories) and a crew rating (cumulated value of all fighters used for the current game). The 2000/3000 credits limit at the end of a Turf War should apply to the former, and the latter would be used to award underdog bonus (extra XP, extra credits, extra tactic cards, etc.)

 

[LIVe13New]

There should be two separate values: a gang rating (cumulated value of everything the gang owns, including credits, items in the stash and special territories) and a crew rating (cumulated value of all fighters used for the current game). The 2000/3000 credits limit at the end of a Turf War should apply to the former, and the latter would be used to award underdog bonus (extra XP, extra credits, extra tactic cards, etc.)

You are absolutely right and this is a biggest flaw of new Necromunda. This is makes me sad.

 

[autoxidation]

You need to allow at least for armour to be moved to the stash, otherwise you can never buy a better armour for a fighter, since they can't have several armours at once. And once you have made this necessary exception for armour, the 'put away the clipper' rule is even harder to justify for the rest.

The end-of-turf-war shenanigans discussed above are the result of the gang rating trying to do two different things at once and failing at both. There should be two separate values: a gang rating (cumulated value of everything the gang owns, including credits, items in the stash and special territories) and a crew rating (cumulated value of all fighters used for the current game). The 2000/3000 credits limit at the end of a Turf War should apply to the former, and the latter would be used to award underdog bonus (extra XP, extra credits, extra tactic cards, etc.)

I like this and will probably add a rule very similar (if not exactly) for our campaign.

 

[TopsyKretts]

You need to allow at least for armour to be moved to the stash, otherwise you can never buy a better armour for a fighter, since they can't have several armours at once. And once you have made this necessary exception for armour, the 'put away the clipper' rule is even harder to justify for the rest.

The end-of-turf-war shenanigans discussed above are the result of the gang rating trying to do two different things at once and failing at both. There should be two separate values: a gang rating (cumulated value of everything the gang owns, including credits, items in the stash and special territories) and a crew rating (cumulated value of all fighters used for the current game). The 2000/3000 credits limit at the end of a Turf War should apply to the former, and the latter would be used to award underdog bonus (extra XP, extra credits, extra tactic cards, etc.)

Gang Rating and Crew Rating - fantastic!

 

[trollmeat]

Uh, so.... Gang Rating & Crew Rating sounds great.

Jumping back a bit to the removing gear stuff.... I really want to be able to shuffle gear around

• trollmeat:
  If a model is “In Recovery”, can I swap their items (specifically in this case - Mesh Armour) on to an active model? I’m going to squiz the rules and see if I can figure it out......
• trollmeat:
  ...the Distribute Equipment section doesn’t say I can’t
  
• @ Zadgrub:
  No, you can't. You can only remove Wargear from a fighter when you give them new Wargear.
• trollmeat:
  So,.. all these dipshits that got themselves shot have to lay about in their mesh armour while their replacements *coughs* ah, these new recruits go into battle without? :-/
• trollmeat:
  I’d like a second opinion please, preferably one that lets me swap gear off injured fighters :-D
  
  59 minutes ago
• @ MedMos:
  
  
  46 minutes ago
• @ cainex1:
  So you're saying... you need a "new" set of gear to put on your recovery units so the fighters can be better equipped?
  
  42 minutes ago
• trollmeat:
  I bought three new cultists and gave them reclaimed autoguns, was hoping they could “borrow” the mesh armour from the layabouts slowly healing from their foray onto the pointy ends of enemy weapons....
  
  34 minutes ago
• trollmeat:
  Flicking through the books I cannot seem to find anything saying I can’t
  
  34 minutes ago
• @ Tiny:
  One of the many reasons that N17++ is not for me.
  
  26 minutes ago
• @ Tiny:
  From what I gather, sadly once they're sealed into their armour it becomes a part of them until they get new armour at which point the old armour magically drops off like a shed skin.

 

[Thorgor]

Rules are permissive. You can only do what they give you permission to do; just because they don't forbid something doesn't mean you can do it.

Case in point, the only rules that let you take back wargear from a fighter are these ones:

Dead fighters are deleted from the roster. Their equipment (except armour) is added to the gang's Stash as long as their gang had at least one fighter on the battlefield at the end of the battle, or if the fighter was taken to the Doc but still died.
[...]
the controlling player can choose to retire fighters (...) their equipment is added to ther gang's Stash.

A fighter may discard any Wargear carried when given new Wargear. Discarded Wargear is placed in the gang's Stash

So, RAW, you need to give some piece of Wargear to your fighters in recovery (any piece of wargear) so that you can get their armour back. Alternatively, you can retire them to get all their equipment back (including weapons).
This is, of course, a dumb rule and an obvious rule patch (the original version of N17 that this thread dates back to didn't allow for armour upgrade).
Also note that it allows for getting wargear back from a captured fighters, which is equally dumb.

 

[trollmeat]

If there is no more clarification or official word I guess I will have to propose to the campaign that I be permitted to shuffle items

 

[JawRippa]

Warning, incomming houserules that do not really answer OP's question

The end-of-turf-war shenanigans discussed above are the result of the gang rating trying to do two different things at once and failing at both. There should be two separate values: a gang rating (cumulated value of everything the gang owns, including credits, items in the stash and special territories) and a crew rating (cumulated value of all fighters used for the current game).

We did exactly that - we have gang rating and squad rating (although now I prefer name crew rating, since it fits theme of gangs better) separated.

As for wargear:
1). We still use "put away the clippers"... Sorta. You are not allowed to swap model's weapons, but you can swap armour and wargear whenever a model spends XP to gain a stat or a skill. So if a champion lost an eye, he can't immediately swap his weapons. If you allow weapons to be swapped at any time players WILL abuse this and serious injuries will lose most of their impact.
2). We disallow deploying any models without armour or weapons. Who would go into a fight when you got nothing to defend yourself with? This is to prevent anti-thematic naked gangers or juves being used as bullet sponges.
3). we have created "Situational" wargear. It is kept in stash and gets equipped by selected fighters right before the game (gang rating and squad rating increase as a result). Situational wargear examples: gasmasks, photo-goggles, web solvents, strip kit, silencers, grappling hook, grav-chute, etc. Basically everything that has a niche use and is not a directly offensive item. Why should my gang rating be bloated and provide bonus tactics to an enemy if I bought some web solvents against a single Delaque gang, but now I'm fighting against someone without web weapons?