N18 Advise for Playing Goliath Gangs - Getting the numbers and Range

[LordGoldsmith]

I have played a couple of games and been going through experimenting to figure out how to better play Goliaths.
I am making a new 1000 cred gang for my next game, learning from my previous games and experience.

This is my draft list:

My goliath gang

My main thoughts are that mainly I have a hard time getting to the enemy and/ or in position to fight them in melee, most the people I have played have had longer range weapons (Van saar, escher and delaque).
I am thinking in future games when I get currency, is to buy as many vat born juves and prospects with the "Terminal Biology", just to get the bodies and to arm them with the furnace plates, stub guns and smoke grenades (if I have the cash), as that has forced people to try and get in close and have run forward to the enemy.
Also, I'm leveling all Goliath's movement when I get the xp.

I feel the main parts I have issues with is:
- Bottling - if a lose one/ two guys I end up failing my bottle due to my gangs numbers (Just roll of the dice).
- Reaching / holding objectives - as it can be difficult for a Goliath to get to an objective, like fuel hunt or turf war.

I have been told I need to be more aggressive with Goliaths and just have them do a clockwise mop up of the board, it would be a different game, so any advise on Goliath gang formation and movement would help too.

Any advice would be appreciated

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Few points,
You have got some expensive Genesmithing there. 50 credits on the Tyrant 15 on the Stimmer, 20 on the Boss (not sure if you can have two of the same upgrades) while you only save 20 on Corrupted data slugs. Thats a Stubgun Bruiser or a better equipped Bully right their.
Some redundant weaponry too. The Boss has a Chain axe and a Grenade launcher and the stimmer has pulverisers and a stub gun. Initially credits are tight and you can't really afford to have fighters being in two roles. A long ranged fighter with a grenade launcher does not need to get close so drop the chain axe. The Stimmer really needs to get stuck into melee. Thats Double Moves and Charging all the time. He has no need to spend an Action on Shooting with a Puny gun when he should be barraling forward. Thats another 30 credits for more fighters.
The Bolt gun is a little pricy as well and there is nothing wrong with the Stubcannon.

Goliaths are the "tough" clan gang. Most average weapons are S3 three so only wound you on 5+. Take the hits shrug it off and keep going forward. You will eventually get there. If the faster gangs reach there first just punch them. with an average of S4 wounding T3 on average on 3+ even your unarmed attacks are not to be ignored.
Cover, and portable cover like Smoke, is your friend.
If Fuel hunts and Ash wastes games are a Thing you get an extra 400 credits for Mounts and Vehicles. That is 8 Wasteland Dirt Bikes (The Ork Warbikes fit the wide stanced Goliaths near perfect you just need to model one arm to hold the handlebars, or steer with the knees...). That boost Movement to 8"

 

[Heart of Storm]

It's worth considering your play setup as well - what size table are you playing on and how much cover is there.

A 4' x 4' board with limited cover and big open firing lines is going to favour long ranged shooty gangs and punish melee builds. Smaller boards, or dense cover (and a Necromunda board should be as dense as you can with cover in my experience) lends itself to a better mix of viable builds and engagement distances.

I'm of the view that you've sunk a lot of cash into 3 models, and that realistically fighting this gang pinning and that neutralising the Stimmer and Leader is going to be everyone's main focus as a) they're the models moving up the table and b) between them they account for just under half your gangs value.

Photon flash, Web and Blaze rules will all be reliable ways to deal with these models, and most gangs have access to one or more of these options, so I'd be inclined to try diversify the spend a little and put some creds into other models to create multiple threat levela

You've got a good start with the boltguns/2x Grenade Launcher, that's a solid firing line, but it means your gang will split in two at the 24" mark, bringing in some shorter range guns and moving up the field together will keep the threat more consistent, so things like Stub Cannons and Combat Shotguns are more useful for supporting a heavy melee punch then weapons that incentive you to hang back.

I'd also suggest you get better mileage out of a stim-slug stash than some of your gene smithing, the movement boost for starters is much more important toughness boosts since getting into cover and out of line of sight, or into melee is almost always a more reliable defence than higher toughness

 

[LordGoldsmith]

Few points,
You have got some expensive Genesmithing there. 50 credits on the Tyrant 15 on the Stimmer, 20 on the Boss (not sure if you can have two of the same upgrades) while you only save 20 on Corrupted data slugs. Thats a Stubgun Bruiser or a better equipped Bully right their.
Some redundant weaponry too. The Boss has a Chain axe and a Grenade launcher and the stimmer has pulverisers and a stub gun. Initially credits are tight and you can't really afford to have fighters being in two roles. A long ranged fighter with a grenade launcher does not need to get close so drop the chain axe. The Stimmer really needs to get stuck into melee. Thats Double Moves and Charging all the time. He has no need to spend an Action on Shooting with a Puny gun when he should be barraling forward. Thats another 30 credits for more fighters.
The Bolt gun is a little pricy as well and there is nothing wrong with the Stubcannon.

Goliaths are the "tough" clan gang. Most average weapons are S3 three so only wound you on 5+. Take the hits shrug it off and keep going forward. You will eventually get there. If the faster gangs reach there first just punch them. with an average of S4 wounding T3 on average on 3+ even your unarmed attacks are not to be ignored.
Cover, and portable cover like Smoke, is your friend.
If Fuel hunts and Ash wastes games are a Thing you get an extra 400 credits for Mounts and Vehicles. That is 8 Wasteland Dirt Bikes (The Ork Warbikes fit the wide stanced Goliaths near perfect you just need to model one arm to hold the handlebars, or steer with the knees...). That boost Movement to 8"

Hello Lunacruiser,

Thank you for the advice.
Reading House of Chains, Rules as written, I cannot see anything saying that you cannot pick the same genesmith upgrade twice.
Only thing I've read is that "Goliaths can only pick those upgrades to their available sub-type" and "A Goliath Leader and Champ can have up to two upgrades". But this might be in errata somewhere, plus I will rethink my upgrades, as you suggested.

I will reconsider the weapon selection for my guys, either specializing them as melee or ranged and a punch from a Goliath is not to be overlooked, plus it gets me one more bully as you said.
Speaking of Orks and vehicles, I am an Ork player for 40k, so it sounds like, I need to keep moving, using cover as and smoke as appropriate and punch them.

Thanks again

 

[LordGoldsmith]

It's worth considering your play setup as well - what size table are you playing on and how much cover is there.

A 4' x 4' board with limited cover and big open firing lines is going to favour long ranged shooty gangs and punish melee builds. Smaller boards, or dense cover (and a Necromunda board should be as dense as you can with cover in my experience) lends itself to a better mix of viable builds and engagement distances.

I'm of the view that you've sunk a lot of cash into 3 models, and that realistically fighting this gang pinning and that neutralising the Stimmer and Leader is going to be everyone's main focus as a) they're the models moving up the table and b) between them they account for just under half your gangs value.

Photon flash, Web and Blaze rules will all be reliable ways to deal with these models, and most gangs have access to one or more of these options, so I'd be inclined to try diversify the spend a little and put some creds into other models to create multiple threat levela

You've got a good start with the boltguns/2x Grenade Launcher, that's a solid firing line, but it means your gang will split in two at the 24" mark, bringing in some shorter range guns and moving up the field together will keep the threat more consistent, so things like Stub Cannons and Combat Shotguns are more useful for supporting a heavy melee punch then weapons that incentive you to hang back.

I'd also suggest you get better mileage out of a stim-slug stash than some of your gene smithing, the movement boost for starters is much more important toughness boosts since getting into cover and out of line of sight, or into melee is almost always a more reliable defence than higher toughness

Hello Heart of Storm,

Thank you for the advice.
To answer the question, yeah most time we are playing on a 4'x4' roll up game mat with Sector Mechanics terrain (I go to a local gaming club for Necromunda), so it can be tricky getting to cover, even after deployment.

I agree with the value for my Goliaths Lead and Champs, maybe I need to be reconsider the pricing for them and get some stimm slugs, and that will get me more gangers/ juves/ prospects for my numbers.

I do use the Fireborn tactic on the lead and champs to negate blaze, but they are still very valuable and dangerous threats if put Out of Action.
Also, I will look into getting stub cannons as it means I could have a few guys with stub cannons.

One ask I have is, would you have a considered value limit for a Goliath Leader, Champ, ect, before you think "Yeah, that is a bit much", in regards to diversifying your gang?

Thanks in advance

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Hello Lunacruiser,

Thank you for the advice.

You are very welcome

Reading House of Chains, Rules as written, I cannot see anything saying that you cannot pick the same genesmith upgrade twice.
Only thing I've read is that "Goliaths can only pick those upgrades to their available sub-type" and "A Goliath Leader and Champ can have up to two upgrades". But this might be in errata somewhere, plus I will rethink my upgrades, as you suggested.

I have had a look too and it doesn't appear to be explicitly stated you are right. Some of them will not stack in effects so I have been assuming you can't pick twice. It probably should not be the case. Otherwise the Goliathsphere will get flooded with max toughness 6 Goliaths from the get go. That's a scary thought.

Speaking of Orks and vehicles, I am an Ork player for 40k, so it sounds like, I need to keep moving, using cover as and smoke as appropriate and punch them.

GOLIATH SMASH!
The Ork vehicles also would work for Custom Medium, Heavy amd Rigs.

Normally I would also advise against armour to start off for all but your heavy hitters.
However for 5 credits furnace plate is a starting steal. Being 5 credits you can also sell it later for 5 credits (selling items is half price -d6*10 but minimum 5 credits). As money becomes available however I would replace it with at least mesh armour. Furnace plate gives a 5+ save from attacks from the front true but those sneaky Delaque, and everyone else will learn to shoot you on the back and sides.

 

[Heart of Storm]

One ask I have is, would you have a considered value limit for a Goliath Leader, Champ, ect, before you think "Yeah, that is a bit much", in regards to diversifying your gang?

Thanks in advance

No hard rules per se, more a sense of "If I was playing this gang who would I want to kill to feel comfortable in going to win"

High value, gene-smithed leader advancing up the table unsupported would absolutely be a priority kill, after which I know I could mop up the rest of the gang having taken a lot of their points out. Even better if I manage to do it with a suicidal juve throwing a photon flash.

I've done big investments in characters before (heck one of my favourite Goliath leaders was an unborn savant with a Heavy Bolter, cost over 400 creds for him alone in the end) - the trick is how the rest of the gang is built around them.

In the above example I had a lot of cheaper dudes pushing forward so he never came under much threat, so the cost worked out, mostly, I wouldn't throw anywhere near that many credits on melee champions or leaders, not unless my game plan was to bring the entire gang down the table

 

[Psyan]

With Goliaths, I tend to focus on shooting in the inital build; at S4/T4 you are still going to win most slapfights vs anyone who isn't a dedicated CC fighter. A Boltgun and two Grenade Launchers (or vice versa) for your Tyrant, Boss and Specialist and a combination of Shotguns and Stub Cannons for your Gangers. No melee weapons for any of these guys to start; that's not their job. Yet.


At the start of most fights, you'll be looking at running your Stimmer and Juves forward, making sure the Stimmer gets the best cover and that the Juves are a little closer to enemy than the Stimmer is. Your gun guys move to get into firing range and once they're there, keep moving forward while shooting. That shooting ensures that your opponent doesn't get to just blaze away at your Stimmer and Juves without consequence; they have to worry about cover and LOS from your shooters. And your melee guys ensure that this isn't just a gunfight; they will be doing their utmost to avoid allowing your Stimmer to charge anything important. This "combined strategy" is important for Goliaths because, as you've noticed, they're not fast enough to simply charge right in to melee; only Corpse Grinders can manage that and they still have infiltrating Gangers for distraction.

 

[BranBuccarcher]

I know a lot of people complain about multiple load outs of the same thing, but 3-4 bruisers armed with stub cannons gives you a solid core for 320creds has a str 5 18" shot with knock back and even unarmed can punch out and tank better than most gangers with a cc weapon.
Also don't forget with str 5 on a champ from genesmithing you can launch blasting charges further than other gangs throw frags smoke grenades are better used on gangs that have access to goggles and sights to shoot through it.
Also a strimmer with just fists of steel and a strimmer slug stash can be a super cheap beasty.
Adaptive mind is also my favourite of all the genesmithing options as you can create such beauties as a hipshooting bolter wielder or fast shooting blast charge thrower...

 

[SmilingSkulls]

I have played a couple of games and been going through experimenting to figure out how to better play Goliaths.
I am making a new 1000 cred gang for my next game, learning from my previous games and experience.

This is my draft list:

My goliath gang

My main thoughts are that mainly I have a hard time getting to the enemy and/ or in position to fight them in melee, most the people I have played have had longer range weapons (Van saar, escher and delaque).
I am thinking in future games when I get currency, is to buy as many vat born juves and prospects with the "Terminal Biology", just to get the bodies and to arm them with the furnace plates, stub guns and smoke grenades (if I have the cash), as that has forced people to try and get in close and have run forward to the enemy.
Also, I'm leveling all Goliath's movement when I get the xp.

I feel the main parts I have issues with is:
- Bottling - if a lose one/ two guys I end up failing my bottle due to my gangs numbers (Just roll of the dice).
- Reaching / holding objectives - as it can be difficult for a Goliath to get to an objective, like fuel hunt or turf war.

I have been told I need to be more aggressive with Goliaths and just have them do a clockwise mop up of the board, it would be a different game, so any advise on Goliath gang formation and movement would help too.

Any advice would be appreciated

I'm not a goliath player or a particularly experienced necromunda player, but I see two particular issues.

1) I like the smoke effect, but I question putting smoke on the grenade launchers. I'd rather have less useful gangers tossing smoke, and more useful gangers doing shooting. Seems like a big waste to spend your grenade launcher shooting with non-lethal smoke. What about giving the juvs smoke grenades? They can help the gang by placing smoke.

2) You have rep 1 with a new gang, so you can take 1 hanger on or brute: I suggest replacing one of the juvs with a a "Gang Lookout" hanger on for 20pts. It has a pistol, a melee weapon, and the Evade skill. The main downside is that they can't get xp and disappear if they get lasting injuries, but since your juvs are likely to die anyway, this might be a good replacement for a terminal biology juv.

 

[BranBuccarcher]

If you are taking a hangar on at creation, then a chem dealer who can provide you with a frenzon collar is a very nasty surprise for opponents. I like giving one to a fists of steel Stimmer, you just have to make sure to pay for it after the game

 

[SmilingSkulls]

If you are taking a hangar on at creation, then a chem dealer who can provide you with a frenzon collar is a very nasty surprise for opponents. I like giving one to a fists of steel Stimmer, you just have to make sure to pay for it after the game

I was suggesting the gang lookout not because it was great, but because it was cheaper than his "terminal biology" juvs.

I regard terminal biology as a complete waste of a juv's potental, especially if they are then given weaponry/roles that will give them lots of injury rolls early on. The gang lookout is also a waste on potential, but going with that mindset, the cheaper option seems like the smart play, and that's the gang lookout.

I think terminal biology would be better suited to either a champion/leader that wasn't expected to roll lots of injuries, or as a fluff/flavor thing to establish an interesting backstory. Could also be something you take on a leader if you are trying to manipulate the game mechanics to allow for a gang leader that isn't normally allowed by the rules (because when the leader dies, there are very specific rules onto who the next leader is).

 

[Lunarcruiser]

I'm not a goliath player or a particularly experienced necromunda player, but I see two particular issues.

1) I like the smoke effect, but I question putting smoke on the grenade launchers. I'd rather have less useful gangers tossing smoke, and more useful gangers doing shooting. Seems like a big waste to spend your grenade launcher shooting with non-lethal smoke. What about giving the juvs smoke grenades? They can help the gang by placing smoke.

With grenade launchers, the weapon not the juve, the workaday frag round for mass pinning and the heavy hitting Kraks both have Ammo 6+. Roll a Ammo check, Boyles law means you will on the first shot, and your shiny grenade launcher is almost certainly out of ammo. (Again Boyles law means you just can't roll that 6+ to save your life).
The smoke grenades have a 4+ ammo value.
Once your grenade launcher is out of ammo when blasting with Kraks you can then Reload with the smoke rounds on a 4+ instead of the Kraks 6+. (When reloading a out of ammo weapon you reload all the rounds you have). You have no help in the initial Firepower dice test but reloading is a piece of cake. same applies to Stun rounds .
For 20 credits it is dirt cheap. You don't even need to use them to benefit from the 4+ ammo roll.
A 65 credit grenade launcher and 20 credits smokes and for 85 credits you basically don't need to give it's wielder anything else except armour. They will do good solid work.

Grenade launchers also have two massive bonus over the thrown versions.
Every time you fire the launcher there is a 1/6 chance of risking going out of ammo, and with 6+ ammo values it's pretty likely.
Every time you throw a grenade You have a 6/6 chance of risking going out of ammo. And if you fail the Ammo check you can't reload that grenade for the rest of the game.

Grenade launchers also have Range. At least double the average fighters throw and 9" more than a S5 fighters.

 

[SmilingSkulls]

With grenade launchers, the weapon not the juve, the workaday frag round for mass pinning and the heavy hitting Kraks both have Ammo 6+. Roll a Ammo check, Boyles law means you will on the first shot, and your shiny grenade launcher is almost certainly out of ammo. (Again Boyles law means you just can't roll that 6+ to save your life).
The smoke grenades have a 4+ ammo value.
Once your grenade launcher is out of ammo when blasting with Kraks you can then Reload with the smoke rounds on a 4+ instead of the Kraks 6+. (When reloading a out of ammo weapon you reload all the rounds you have). You have no help in the initial Firepower dice test but reloading is a piece of cake. same applies to Stun rounds .
For 20 credits it is dirt cheap. You don't even need to use them to benefit from the 4+ ammo roll.
A 65 credit grenade launcher and 20 credits smokes and for 85 credits you basically don't need to give it's wielder anything else except armour. They will do good solid work.

Definitely depends on rules interpretation. RAW, "out of ammo" applies per weapon, not per ammo type.

And to further support he RAW, the "Combi" gives a specific exception for combi weapons in tracking the multiple weapon profiles being out of ammo seperately "...unlike most weapons that have two profiles..."

As for the smokes as a fallback after you run out of krak, so I see that as a huge failure in the value of a smokes to a starting gang. If you aren't using the clouds to allow you to close the distance to your opponent, the smokes shouldn't be in the gang list at all. At least not for a starting gang.

20pts is not cheap for something you don't plan to use except in situations, at least not cheap for a starting gang.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Definitely depends on rules interpretation. RAW, "out of ammo" applies per weapon, not per ammo type.

And to further support he RAW, the "Combi" gives a specific exception for combi weapons in tracking the multiple weapon profiles being out of ammo seperately "...unlike most weapons that have two profiles..."

No rules interpretation about it.
The rules state the weapon is reloaded. Even if multiple Out of ammo markets are present it states it is for multiple weapons, not ammo types.
That means the whole weapon (aside from Scarce or Limited traits that have already ran out).
The Combi trait description even re enforces this rule.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

As for the smokes as a fallback after you run out of krak, so I see that as a huge failure in the value of a smokes to a starting gang. If you aren't using the clouds to allow you to close the distance to your opponent, the smokes shouldn't be in the gang list at all. At least not for a starting gang.

You have the option to use smokes or not as the situation requires. You gain no XP from dropping smokes. It allows you to reload Krak grenades on a 4+. That is a pretty huge plus.

20pts is not cheap for something you don't plan to use except in situations, at least not cheap for a starting gang.

Given this is a Goliath thread and furnace plate is so cheap 20 credits is easily fundable even at a 1000 credit budget.

 

[Psyan]

With a Goliath gang, shooting grenade launcher smoke is often a turn 1 move for me. I like to drop it in front of my opponents best long-range gun to cover my advance. The cool thing about smoke is that the enemy doesn't need to be in range for it to be effective, you just have to land it somewhere between their best gun(s) and your high-value models.

 

[SmilingSkulls]

You have the option to use smokes or not as the situation requires. You gain no XP from dropping smokes. It allows you to reload Krak grenades on a 4+. That is a pretty huge plus.

Interesting. I'd not thought about the grenade launcher being able to exploit the reloading rules in that manner. You are probably right, but I'll have to look into that.

Regarding dropping smokes and XP, the main drawback of Terminal Biology is that your juvs are unlikely to survive and therefore there's no real point in focusing on XP gains, right? That's why I was suggesting they'd be perfect for dropping smoke grenades. Also perfect for replacing with cheaper hanger ons.

 

[HugeSamples]

- Bottling - if a lose one/ two guys I end up failing my bottle due to my gangs numbers (Just roll of the dice).

The good news is Goliath is designed to last a while post bottling--many of your models have fantastic cool ratings. In general Goliath are going to have a lower model count than other gangs. I'd still aim for at least 8 in my starting list though.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Interesting. I'd not thought about the grenade launcher being able to exploit the reloading rules in that manner. You are probably right, but I'll have to look into that.

That is the main draw of different ammo types. A useful situational tool but better ammo rolls to reload all the time.

Regarding dropping smokes and XP, the main drawback of Terminal Biology is that your juvs are unlikely to survive and therefore there's no real point in focusing on XP gains, right? That's why I was suggesting they'd be perfect for dropping smoke grenades. Also perfect for replacing with cheaper hanger ons.

You can always get more juves.
You are limited on reputation slots for hangers on