Airborne stuff and countering it

Flamekebab

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Things are taking to the air and eventually I might have a go at compiling them together into some sort of flying faction. I figure a topic might be handy for the overall subject.

To start with we've got Koptas and Double Wokkas. Two kinds of helicopters, one of which can carry crew.
There's also Stefan Fergus' rules for Rokkit Paks although these might benefit from a modern rewrite.

Then there's Dmitri's as yet unpublished rules for planes and airships.

I know that Azzabat and his group have been experimenting with koptas in their campaign (Incidentally "Mad Erik's Flying Washing Machine of Doom" manages to perfectly encapsulate what I love about Gorkamorka.). By the sounds of it some gear for dealing with these whirlybirds would help a great deal.

This is a big enough concern to warrant addressing it first before working on Dmitri's vehicles, I feel.

Perhaps a variant of 'Eet Seekaz? Tethered harpoons with braking mechanisms?

Whatcha reckon?
 
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ineptmule

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Harpoons and tethers sound fun, although I imagine would be absolutely devastating if you could make the effects be even remotely realistic. Heat seeking weapons could be ludicrously chaotic and therefore very appropriate.

I haven't read the rules for any of this stuff in detail, but it seems like the main thing is to ensure that the airborne vehicles have very thin armour, so while it might be hard to hit them, the odd lucky hit can do some real damage.

It could also mean that there's diminishing returns to some extent on using really heavy weaponry, which would be appropriate - big shoota rounds could tear right through and only cause serious damage if it hits something important.

Finally, I hope there are rules for extra damage when crew members fall from an airborne vehicle. Maybe look at the Necro rules for falling and add the concept of high impact? Also perhaps have Orks that fall but don't suffer a wound end up being pinned due to getting a bit stunned - would be a nice little shake up to their usual supremacy.
 

ineptmule

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Just read the Kopta rules in full. As far as I'm concerned they DEFINITELY have too much armour. I would reduce armour for Koptas by 2 in all locations, by 1 for double Wokkas. Perhaps add an additional -1 to hit them when shooting.

In terms of anti-aircraft gear it would be cool to have some kind of modification to rokkits or stikbombs, or a new weapon entirely, that makes them function like airbursting flak. Also, as they are effectively 6" off the ground they can still be hit by skorchas and stuff, and frag stikbombs that hit or scatter within the vehicle will hit (although presumably if they scatter off they will do no damage? That's a necessary clarification I feel)

With all that combined, frag will be nasty - D3 hits penetrating on 3s or 4s, and skorchas on 2s or 3s (maybe too good I'm just realising... -1 to armour only on Koptas then, leave Wokkas at armour 8? Perhaps reduce armour on the engines by 1 or 2?)

Airbursting flak would need to work a bit like barrage weapons in 40k - build in the proximity to the explosion somehow. For example, If the hole of the template is within 1" of the flying base then it does D3 hits and if further but within the template it does 1. You could have a blanket +1 to scatter distance to make them a little more unpredictable.
 
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Flamekebab

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I had a thought a moment ago, ineptmule - what if we keep the armour values the same but treat all ranged weapons as +1 Strength? Hand-to-hand hits on the vehicle (fairly unusual, to be honest) would behave as normal but it would mean that a new table wouldn't be needed laying out different armour values.

Do you think that would work or is it needlessly complicated?

I like the idea of some sort of flak cannon. I'm not sure on how best to work the rules as yet though. My concern isn't so much with what you suggested but with how it would fit into the game. If it's a modification for Rokkit Launchers then that relies on mobs having that weapon (pretty unusual in my experience - 'Eavy Shootas are much more useful). If it's a separate weapon then it needs to work for something other than aircraft or the mob that takes one is essentially forgoing a Big Gun to take it (opportunity cost).

I'd be inclined to make it a new Big Gun if we can make it fun and useful for normal mobs. That said with the Strength buff it might not be necessary to create any new weapons for it.

I suppose ideally the goal is to make aircraft fit in without forcing all other mobs to make special concessions for dealing with them. When an arms race comes into play it messes with the dynamics of a campaign and reduces the choices available to players.

Don't forget to include some form of countermeasure gubbinz for the Wokkas.
Craig Thompson Wood beat you too it, Azzabat! ;) The article includes "Hot Squigglies" for escaping from missiles.
 

Azzabat

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Where can I find that? I've tried to search on everything I can think of but nothing is found.

CJ = )
 

ineptmule

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I suppose ideally the goal is to make aircraft fit in without forcing all other mobs to make special concessions for dealing with them. When an arms race comes into play it messes with the dynamics of a campaign and reduces the choices available to players.
Absolutely agreed, which is why I'm quoting this part first. However I think this is going to be challenge! This is a pretty drastic addition to the game and it's going to be hard to balance it.

To be honest I think I worry slightly more about making the flying vehicles into absolute deathtraps that over the course of the first few games that they take part in increase the attrition on the mob that takes them such that they end up at a distinct disadvantage after a while. Some of my changes proposed above go too far in this direction I feel.

My thoughts on the rest of your post in the order that seems logical...

I had a thought a moment ago, ineptmule - what if we keep the armour values the same but treat all ranged weapons as +1 Strength? Hand-to-hand hits on the vehicle (fairly unusual, to be honest) would behave as normal but it would mean that a new table wouldn't be needed laying out different armour values.

Do you think that would work or is it needlessly complicated?
I think this is complicated and I really don't see why this is necessary. Sorry. You can already be forced to modify the armour values of a regular vehicle during the course of a campaign, and this doesn't necessitate changing the core damage tables any more than just -1 to the armour on all locations.

I like the idea of some sort of flak cannon. I'm not sure on how best to work the rules as yet though. My concern isn't so much with what you suggested but with how it would fit into the game. If it's a modification for Rokkit Launchers then that relies on mobs having that weapon (pretty unusual in my experience - 'Eavy Shootas are much more useful). If it's a separate weapon then it needs to work for something other than aircraft or the mob that takes one is essentially forgoing a Big Gun to take it (opportunity cost).

I'd be inclined to make it a new Big Gun if we can make it fun and useful for normal mobs. That said with the Strength buff it might not be necessary to create any new weapons for it.
Yeah, good ideas. I think I introduced Rokkits because they sound appropriate to an anti-air role, even though actually, they aren't. I guess I'm thinking more about missiles. If anything, unguided rokkits are more appropriate to be fitted on an aircraft for their ground-attack capability!

That said, I think we should be taking active steps to reduce the dominance of the Eavy Shoota. It is by far the best weapon in the game; certainly the most versatile, and I so rarely see the other weapon types. Combined with the fact that an Eavy Shoota crewed by a gunner with average BS can quite readily gain 10XP per burst (50% hit rate, high chance of penetrating with each hit) vs. an enemy vehicle if their own did not use its thrusters, I really feel that other weapons need to come out of the shadows.

But of course you're right that we need to make changes to other weapons be fun and useful to mobs that aren't facing airborne threats. But I quite like the idea that the AA weapons are a bit more specialised. Perhaps you can mount one AA weapon to a Trukk or Trakk in addition to a regular fixed weapon. It could function more like a piece of gubbins, being crewed ad-hoc by whoever is along for the ride at that time?

On a bike however, you could be forced to choose between an AA weapon and a regular bike fixed weapon. This doesn't feel like a great loss as bikes are limited to linked gunz anyway.

Here's an idea for flak: Use the small blast template. The shooter defines whether it is aiming at an air or a ground target. It doesn't roll to hit, instead it scatters from the intended target automatically, halving the result of the artillery dice. If a model is located under the hole of the template, it hits with S5 and does D3 hits (to ladz and vehicles!) If it's located under the rest of the template, it hits at S4 and does 1. Give it a max range somewhere between 12-18" I think.
 
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Azzabat

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If you're thinking of gubbinz you could look at something like a modified smoke grenade discharger. Fires a frag grenade upwards/outwards 12"=14" or something similar. Could be used against ground or air targets.

C J = )
 
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Flamekebab

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I think this is complicated and I really don't see why this is necessary. Sorry.
Please don't be sorry. This is exactly the kind of response I was hoping for!

Rules work out better when they're discussed, tested, argued over, and generally beaten on the anvil of experience. When working on these things I tend to propose a load of different concepts just to get them out of my head. After that it's up to them to survive (or perish!) based on their own merit.

You can already be forced to modify the armour values of a regular vehicle during the course of a campaign, and this doesn't necessitate changing the core damage tables any more than just -1 to the armour on all locations.
Agreed. Did you settle on specific values for Koptas and Double Wokkas?

That said, I think we should be taking active steps to reduce the dominance of the Eavy Shoota. It is by far the best weapon in the game; certainly the most versatile, and I so rarely see the other weapon types. Combined with the fact that an Eavy Shoota crewed by a gunner with average BS can quite readily gain 10XP per burst (50% hit rate, high chance of penetrating with each hit) vs. an enemy vehicle if their own did not use its thrusters, I really feel that other weapons need to come out of the shadows.
A very good point. They look expensive at 15 teef but put a decent gunner on them and they rake in experience. Grimlug'z Ladz' gunner, ZodZod, is second only to Grimlug himself in terms of experience (302 vs. 272). This has resulted in a gunner with BS6 and the Dakka Dakka! skill. Very nasty. I even upgraded his weapon to S6.

It might be interesting to introduce some purchasable mods for weapons. Technically 'Eet Seekas are a mod for the Rokkit Launcher (and perhaps should be encouraged as the Rokkit Launcher is rather dull on its own!).

A strong tether for a harpoon gun?


But I quite like the idea that the AA weapons are a bit more specialised. Perhaps you can mount one AA weapon to a Trukk or Trakk in addition to a regular fixed weapon. It could function more like a piece of gubbins, being crewed ad-hoc by whoever is along for the ride at that time?
Well the Double Wokka rules do set a precedent for it... :ROFLMAO:

My only concern is a fluff one - can you imagine Orks not shooting other targets with such a weapon?

On a bike however, you could be forced to choose between an AA weapon and a regular bike fixed weapon. This doesn't feel like a great loss as bikes are limited to linked gunz anyway.
With the exception of the Outlaw MCs this sounds totally reasonable.

I had an idea - what if one could equip warriors on foot (or perhaps just Spanners/Bad Meks) with a single-shot 'Eet Seeka? It couldn't be used on normal warriors and would only be usable once per game.

Here's an idea for flak: Use the small blast template. The shooter defines whether it is aiming at an air or a ground target. It doesn't roll to hit, instead it scatters from the intended target automatically, halving the result of the artillery dice. If a model is located under the hole of the template, it hits with S5 and does D3 hits (to ladz and vehicles!) If it's located under the rest of the template, it hits at S4 and does 1. Give it a max range somewhere between 12-18" I think.
I like it! My only concern is how BS doesn't factor in at all. I have a suggestion though:
  1. Roll Artillery Dice
  2. Subtract Gunner's BS
  3. Half the result
I haven't given the numbers much thought so it might not work out at all. I just wanted to get it out there and get this reply posted as I've been too busy this weekend to respond as much as I'd like.
 

Kon-rad

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That said, I think we should be taking active steps to reduce the dominance of the Eavy Shoota. It is by far the best weapon in the game; certainly the most versatile, and I so rarely see the other weapon types. Combined with the fact that an Eavy Shoota crewed by a gunner with average BS can quite readily gain 10XP per burst (50% hit rate, high chance of penetrating with each hit) vs. an enemy vehicle if their own did not use its thrusters, I really feel that other weapons need to come out of the shadows.
.
That would make an interesting thread. I may start one.

On the rules themselves, looks like a lot of fun. Are the thrust rules the same as Blitzkart's? As they stand, it makes more sense to use your air support as a floating gun platform. Thrusting is too risky. I vote for lighter armor and maybe an extra-extra free thrust? Zooom! Swoosh! Not sure you would need a bunch of special wargear to deal with them. And not sure the pintle mounts are necessary. . I'm sure it's only because the models in mind have them though.
 
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Kon-rad

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Oh, and I bet you could rig a wrecking ball or equivalent from a 'copter. British secret agents get an unmodified 2+ save vs them though.
 

Flamekebab

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Thrusting is too risky. I vote for lighter armor and maybe an extra-extra free thrust? Zooom! Swoosh!
I hadn't given the thrusting rules much thought but you may well be right!

Has anyone here used Dregmek enough to have any experience with that kind of thrusting?

Not sure you would need a bunch of special wargear to deal with them.
Perhaps not. Hopefully someone can give the rules a bit of testing and report back.

And not sure the pintle mounts are necessary. . I'm sure it's only because the models in mind have them though.
It's less because of the models and more because of how many pop-culture things feature door-gunners. The pintle mount only allows for linked guns though.
 

Aroven

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I don't see what the issue is- A Kopter/wokka is no harder to hit with shooting than a bike or trukk is. The rule has even been quoted in the thread already. I don't see a need to drop their armor any either as being immobilized nets you D3 hits, and wokkas have a chance at falling apart midair for having more than one lad on it, crashing turn one with some unlucky rolls. That said, eet seekas would be entertaining with or without kopters. And what self respecting ork would say no to a kannon that goes boom twice?
 
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Azzabat

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The issue I've found with Koptas/Wokkas is that if you allow them to increase they're almost impossible to take out without heavy weapons as you can't engage them in hand to hand.

I'm running a Biker gang and Koptas just follow behind my bikes shooting with impunity. I end up needing 6+ to hit, 6+ to penetrate.

An exceptional case I admit but just saying they should be rickety, lightweight machines like in Mad Max Road Warrior.
 

Aroven

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I don't really see what advantage they have over anything else, save being able to ignore difficult terrain and not ram able. Not to mention quite capable of falling out of the sky without taking a single slug, bad rolls permitting. Kopters may be more stable but they're just as limited as bikes at shooting, and just as fragile. Top all that off with a five teef hike in price, I think they're balanced enough. I'm putting together an Evil Sunz wokka mob, and only have three models, with a double wokka and a kopta. Thats a pretty thin start, all considered.
 
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Azzabat

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I feel your pain. My Sons of AnOrky only have 5. But I love them to pieces. Unfortunately of the 4 other guys I started my campaign with 1 finished College and went home, 1 has a newborn and the other has no time due to work. The other has been woed away by X-Wing.
 

Aroven

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Ouch. I dont really have anyone to play with , or the money to do more than wistfully stare at the hobby. As it stands, I may be playing with paper models and scratchbuilt terrain. All unpainted. =/
 

DracoPT

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For Gorkamorka you can play with a toy car from the dollar store, then it's CONVERSION TIME!!! for the actual models you can get a box of 4 Ork Boyz for like 8€ or your equivalent, but if you can save some money like 23€ you can get a box of 11 boyz (or 10 boyz and a Nob) and that's enough for a mob, maybe two if you start with only a few of them all geared up
 
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spafe

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And if you're going with paper models, nooker has created some truly inspired pieces out of paper, and just set your printer to colour and its prepainted! :p
 
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