Am I the only one that doesn't like NCE?

[ScooterinAB]

Now that Anthony Case's Community Edition has been out for a while, it seems that most people are swearing by it. It seems like I'm among a handful of people who don't use it and don't like it. What's up with that?

Let me explain my stance. I got into Necromunda pretty hard when the Hardcover release came out. My friends and I played for years, and eventually slowed down when we got older and got into roleplaying. We periodically bounced in and out of Necromunda over the years, and eventually picked up the later releases (what would become the LRB). Fairly recently, we played a short campaign using the LRB and the major documents (mostly pertaining to the Outlanders material).

Ruleswise, I guess you could say that I'm sort of a neo-purist. I refer back to the original rules for everything, but use the newer rules because of the fairly long support and (for a while anyways) active errata. That said, the issue with the LRB is that some things were never finalized, a lot of new and strange material was added (mostly scenarios), and some changes opened Pandora's Box and were never fully resolved. As an amusing note, I recently did a fine-toothed combing of the LRB, and found several references to the original box that the game was sold in, showing that the game was just a reprint, not a rewrite (we knew it already, but I thought that was funny to see)..

As for the Community Edition, I seem to view it with a bit of distaste. No offense to Mr. Case, because some of the work he's done is really interesting. But whenever I try to look at NCE, I find that it is just stuffed with new made up stuff that was never in the game in the first place and has no background for being there. I also find that it fails to resolve some of the problems, like the entire Weapon List fiasco.

I have something of an all-or-nothing approach to gaming. Although it sounds like Mr. Case cleaned up the wording a great deal, there are too many other additions and changes that I feel I'd be saddled with. Sure, I can just ignore some of the new gear and some of the changes, but that puts me right back where we're at with the LRB.

I'm not necessarily looking to be sold on NCE, but I do what to know why everyone has gotten on board with it. Is it just the backlash of the changes pitched with the LRB, or the fact that that entire methodology (including other SG games at the time) never felt written in stone? Is it that people really didn't like Necromunda getting messed? Is it a case of shiny syndrome (the tendency to move towards newer and more available rules)?

Am I the only one? Are there others that think this way? Do you have any thoughts on my comments?

 

[Margorach]

ur not the only 1

i absolutely dislike a lot of the changes in the comunity edition
and eventhough there are a lot of mistakes in the lrb version, all the people i play with use it.

too many changes in the nce version that dont always solve problems , sometimes take away from teh fun and sometimes even create new problems. and dont get me started on the weapon lists or the new weapons

 

[cardyfreak]

I don't get where you're coming from TBH, the NCE version really just takes out glaring errors, and adds in things that were either taken out in LRB or streamlines/ improves some of the unbalanced stuff.
The muscle skill table was useless. It's better now. But part of balancing the tables means nerfing some of the massively OP ones in a given table and spreading its perks out amongst weaker ones (jump back being a prime example).
Catch fire rules are awesome and should never have been omitted.
Weapon costs are slightly altered but in no way are you going to notice this affecting your game in a negative way. If anything you'll only notice it when you realise you DO actually have enough for that las-cannon.
My thoughts on HWL are well documented (im not a fan) but they are the only real difference between houses. I'm currently working on something to make the houses more distinct but you don't have to use them. You don't have to use anything in either book if you don't want to. People get really hung up on abiding rigidly to wording and rules on this site. We all know there are problems in the rules, NCE eradicates most of them and what's left you can figure out for yourself. I don't have a problem with LRB, I just find that the changes in NCE are far more sensicle and balanced. Another really good thing, but relatively minor, is the lasgun/ autogun tweak. In LRB why would you ever choose an autogun? Whywhywhy? Lasgun has 2+ ammo roll, -1 save and the same range as the autogun. NCE makes autoguns viable choices again.
The added weapons are unnecessary but just give you options for using current weapons in 40k. Hardly a big conspiracy there. And again, if you don't want them, don't use them. I don't think these things make the vast amount of work in NCE redundant. We can pick fault with anything. But I can pick more fault with LRB than NCE.

And let's also not forget that NCE started off as a bloke and his mates clearing out the crap from LRB for themselves, using lots of play testing (more than the LRB blatantly received) and donating their revised rules to the Necro community to see if people liked them and might want to use them. People did like them. People do use them. Not because they're new or shiny or whatever, just because they're better thought out and balanced.

 

[Gorkamunda]

Hey, I'm a purist in many ways, I like the original models (and think the best conversions/kit bashes are the ones that look like them), and I play on a board completely made up of original terrain, but when it comes to the rules - NCE makes playing so much more enjoyable. Less time spent discussing rules, more time spent playing.

 

[jimjimjimmyjim]

I grew tired of playing a game with dozens of loopholes and flaws in it. I have always loved necromunda but I wanted to try the NCE, this is the first time I have in the campaign I'm currently running and it's been great. There's still been some issues but not big ones.

The only thing I don't like is the hunting rifle which our group all agrees it should be a move or shoot weapon.

The past FAQ that came out for the LRB (2007?) it answered a lot of questions but also contradicted it self several times over. Atleast in this edition you get answers and if I have a question I can just ask mr case and I get my answer!

 

[LuckGod]

I don't wish to get too deep into this debate myself as I believe people should use the rules they are happy with.

But House weapon lists are not a CE thing, they came about in LRB

 

[ScooterinAB]

I agree that people should play with the rules they are comfortable with. No argument there.

To address a few misunderstandings, I also agree that rules for catching fire were fine. Necromunda is a small enough game that doing a little accounting isn't a big deal. That's a perfect example of what can happen when a small change takes place (for the LRB and in general).

I'm also well aware of where the Weapon lists came from. What I was referring to specifically is that NCE just rocks the boat with it. Although the lists there are better and more representative of the gangs, the strictness regarding Leader weapons takes it all a few steps backwards.

I agree that one can just not use some of the new equipment, like the hunting rifle. However, this creates a problem with piece-mealing the game that puts you back with the problem with the LRB.

Please keep the comments coming. Like I said, i want to hear how others weigh in on this.

 

[Sharkforce]

i consider it much easier to just omit added stuff that i don't like. rewriting the rules to be clear so that (hopefully) everyone understands them and there is no need to work out what is meant in the middle of a game is much more work than ignoring the autoslugger or hunting rifle (though actually, i don't particularly have a strong objection to either of those weapons).

and certainly making muscle worth taking and making techno not quite so ridiculous is a lot more work than pretending that there's no such thing as house weapon lists.

(on a side note, i am curious what exactly you feel is so restrictive about leader weapons?)

 

[Santos]

Having never played Goliath the original muscle skills didn't really bother me as i tended to roll on other tables. iI use to think it would über suck is in the goliath juves who don't get much choice given that rolling on shooting/combat tables early is not a good idea. Now days i think it isn't to bad as they just become tougher and i can see how shooters benifit from the original muscle skills.

That said i never seemed have trouble utilising the skill with my heavies regardless of house in the endless quest to get Bulging Biceps so i can move or fire heavy weapons rather than run one turn shoot the next.
Also once you roll at least 2 skills there seemed a good chance you would roll a skill you already had so by that stage you probably where picking the skill you wanted on that table anyway. Same with ferocity, leaders kept rolling on that to get Iron Will. The fact i get 5 skills for everyone else never worried me since they are all good skills and cawdor/orlock and escher have other tables anyway.

The LRB has some good add on material to ORB like abolishing the sustained fire dice and the simplifying of the hand flamer into a 1 shot rather than the small little teardrop. Sure you have increased the likely hood of hitting but its once, back in the day i use to whore the handflamer by raining death with multiple sprays from a level above. Crap BS gunfighers with twin handflamers 'Roast putos!'

The bits i have read in NCE seem to have some good rule clarifications but other additions seem pointless as they are really just house rules like the autoslugger and hunting rifle. These sort of things should be in an optional extras errata.

I plan on ignoring the House weapon List for LRB indefinately, like i said in my Survivng Dystopia thread the list seem written purely on the sculps available at the time rather than any solid playtesting or fluff consideration.
So yes maybe some wares are available only to gangs coming straight from hive city after being supplied by their house industries. Guilders operate between the houses as well as the underhive where the flow of arms is probably like present day iraq/afghan or the former 'wild west'.
Still think the majority of house gangs come from the blurred areas between the lower levels of hive city and underhive.
I kind of see the underhive much in the same way as the conquest of the americas with the houses being european superpowers. The underhivers themselves may be a mix of houses but there loyalties/culture are influnced by the dominating power at the time. Most brazilians don't know that Rio de Janeiro was first colonised by french citizens escaping religious prosecution. In fact a lot of superpowers just seized the towns that prospered within 10 years or so rather than wasting resources creating there own footholds.

Eg A settlement which was originally founded by orlocks in an abandoned takes in an influx of refugees fleeing hive quakes predominantly delaque and escher origin to help reclaim the dome. As trade booms and wives taken these green hivers bring some of their ways but largely assimilate to the orlock culture. Later on House cawdor reclaims the area as its directly below them in hive city. Some will migrate to be refugees in other regions but others will join the ranks of the ranks of cawdor doning the mask and adheering to the creed of redemption. Couple of centuries later the region falls into disrepair with house cawdor sending the bulk of its citizens back uphive to replenish numbers from the latest imperial guard drafts. Eventually cawdor abandons the entire region completely as its no longer productive enough.
The idle grounds become home to giant rats and other hive fauna feeding of the waste and debris. Those who stay scrape a living scavenging and farming algae foodcrops. Fungi and mould claim the untravelled areas If not decades pass and a ratskin pathfinder under the pay of a large group of uphive goliath exodites discovers the fogotten dome. He reports the find and the goliaths bring isotropic fuel rods and tools creating a new settlement, where other hivers join continue the cycle.

Examples like the above that are isolated completely for centuries (many generations) without outside aid would probably be settled by migrating ratskin tribes or its current mixed populace form the basis for new proto-ratskin tribes having ran out of munitions and lost the abiltity to maintain their machines resort to a feral survivalist state.

What a tangent that was! The only way i could see house weapon list adding to the game is if at recruitment only non-house list weapons where slightly dearer (if so by how much to represent guilders cut) or house list weapons where marginally cheaper to represent them being bought at the factory ( like 5 credits)
Even so this should only really apply to basic+special+pistol weapons and perharps the heavy stubber. Leader only weapons and other heavy weapons are a niche low volume industries compared to the mainstream weapons made daily in the hundred of thousands.

Similar with HtH weapons, necromundas prime industry is equipping armies (imperial or private), they might make chainswords for officers and specialists but the bulk of it is Las or Auto weapondary and munitions. (not to mention cawdor would get screwed and escher would see the greatest gain and if you took my 5 creds literrally everyone would start out with 2 knives free)

All in all the original skill lists seem the best for me. The only real gripe is the techno list. Its the only list that buffs the entire gang (excluding iron will which only works if the leader is not down) I just don't think it should be available to juves and gangers outside of a roll of 2 or 12. This techno table should really be renamed Support (for fixer, armourer, medic, inventor, specialitst.. maybe a trader) with an eighth table of techno with completely different skills that buff the individual (with weaponsmith and abilities to better use items to buff the individual) That or exclude vansaar in the first place.

 

[Underhand]

I play with both LRB and NCE rules depending on what other players are familiar with.

When I play with LRB rules, I often find myself wishing we were playing with NCE. I can't ever recall thinking the reverse.

I think the vast majority of changes made by NCE improve the game, either by adding balance (especially with the skill tables), or preventing exploits. In general, NCE just seems to be more common sense, probably because it isn't as bound by the adherence to 2nd ed 40k that the original rules were.

I honestly can't think of any change made by NCE that makes the game less fair or comprehensible compared to the LRB rules. Could the OP point to anything specific that the NCE makes worse?

 

[ScooterinAB]

[quote authoer=sharkface](on a side note, i am curious what exactly you feel is so restrictive about leader weapons?)[/quote]

The problem I have is that they are restrictive. The whole issue with the House Weapon Lists, primarily, is that they invalidate several models from the original line. Mr. Case's restrictive decision to prohibit access to Leader weapons is a step backwards, since some models are armed with some of these weapons. No version of the rules, save for the originals, handles this appropriately, and NCE is no exception. It's just a meaningless restriction put into the game without a clear explanation as to why.

I think the vast majority of changes made by NCE improve the game, either by adding balance (especially with the skill tables), or preventing exploits. In general, NCE just seems to be more common sense, probably because it isn't as bound by the adherence to 2nd ed 40k that the original rules were.

I honestly can't think of any change made by NCE that makes the game less fair or comprehensible compared to the LRB rules. Could the OP point to anything specific that the NCE makes worse?

But it is based on 2nd edition 40k. That has never changed. And if it has, Mr. Case has made a very dangerous mistake. Changing a few rules can have dramatic results (like the Catch Fire debacle I mentioned). Changing the entire game would be pointlessly difficult.

For me, it's not that anything is any more balanced than anything else. But is Mr. Case (or anyone else) starts trusting in a bunch of made up, precedent-less rules, it makes me wonder how "authentic" any other changes are. Not to say that this is the case, but it does raise an alarm for me. House rules are fine, as are minor changes and clarifications. But NCE just comes off as a bunch of made up stuff mixed in with a few highlights.

 

[Sharkforce]

how is it a step backwards? nowhere in the rules does it say "your gang can never use these weapons". the only difference is whether it is easy to get them, or extra-super-duper-easy to get them. if you want a ganger to use those weapons... well, you can. problem solved.

 

[spafe]

The problem I have is that they are restrictive. The whole issue with the House Weapon Lists, primarily, is that they invalidate several models from the original line. Mr. Case's restrictive decision to prohibit access to Leader weapons is a step backwards, since some models are armed with some of these weapons. No version of the rules, save for the originals, handles this appropriately, and NCE is no exception. It's just a meaningless restriction put into the game without a clear explanation as to why.

I get the feeling that you cant like the LRB version either then, as while the contents of the lsits has changed to make it a bit more balanced, the set up and execution of this section has remained identical in both.

It seems to me your main issue is simple the added weapons, in which case, could you not jsut ignore them? then its the LRB with more balance, and less grey areas in rules. Quite a lot of people seem to ignore HWL anyway in both LRB and CE, so theres no change there.

Not saying your wrong, from the poll elsewhere about whoes playing what rules it seems quite a few people still prefer other versions (including the ORB). The main jump however seems to be from ORB to LRB, with AC being a refinement of the LRB, with much lesser changes

 

[LuckGod]

I can't see how CE is any less valid than ORB, in terms of playtesting it is ahead in leaps and bounds.
Have you ever played caravan? Broken as hell. GW are well known for putting out rules that have not been fully thought through.

I know alot of people don't like HWL's but to a certain extent without them you can end up with weapon spam of things that dont suit a house.
Yes that means some models are armed with guns not on their lists, like Goliaths with las weapons.
(I don't think las suits them at all anyway)
But unless you are super hung up on WYSIWYG it doesn't matter.

 

[Santos]

I know alot of people don't like HWL's but to a certain extent without them you can end up with weapon spam of things that dont suit a house.
Yes that means some models are armed with guns not on their lists, like Goliaths with las weapons.
(I don't think las suits them at all anyway)
But unless you are super hung up on WYSIWYG it doesn't matter.

That seem odd. Who decided that any of the weapons dont suit any of the houses? Why would a sword not be 'Goliath like' for example? Maybe a katana is uncharacteristic but a bad-ass claymore or gladius would fit right in.
Why are the ferocious radicals of cawdor not capable of procuring HtH weapons easily? Do mobs or combat heavy partisians not use clubs and pitchforks? Why can't any of the houses have a lot of gangers with arsonist tendencies? What is exactly about a missile launcher that fits more into an orlock psyche or a heavy plasma gun into an escher? Why is having two of either in a delaque gang obviously spamming?

There are provisions that you can get non-house list items. It still doesn't stop cawdor buying unlimited handflamers while escher can get 3 with a lucky roll and the leader misses out on rare trade. What improves the game by letting escher have all the swords they want in the complete opposite? The restriction don't do anything for the game. Which is probably why a lot of people ignore it after recruitment if not completely.

These are all examples taken from the Living Rulebook and show that HWL are broke period. NCE has edited some of this but it doesn't fix the source of the problem that it really a case of 'this suit me and i dont like that in my sandbox' People dont like others spamming handflamers? HWL did not fix this, it just gave exclusive rights for cawdor to still do it etc. People will still spam. So officially deciding which house gets what sets of spams does not improve game play.

If the restrictions of HWL don't effect your favoured meta with your own house it would be easy to support them.

A lasgun still kills and maims, no matter how brutish a goliath might be i don't think he would dismiss one as being less dangerous to him or someone else. Maybe they have the emotional snub for when the heat is up close but use a lasgun as the workhorse. Or maybe the kick of the autogun gets their blood running but a laspistol sits in their belt as the back up. When your life is on the line reliability has its charms.
Las technology in general is also the backbone of the Imperium, as a manufacturing giant house goliath would be churning these out just as much as anyone else.

Please understand this is not an attack on you LuckGod, you might just be playing devils advocate after all or believe the HWL have true merit, which i can respect as your choice. For me personally i just dont understand why NCE didn't abandon the concept entirely, its a pointless restriction in my eyes. If people want to self-impose weapon types on themselves go for it, it doesn't need the HWL rule to help you achieve this.

 

[LuckGod]

I don't take it personally at all, I just find it odd that some people have an issue with CE because of HWL's which you can choose to ignore, and they are in LRB too (but worse ones)
The only issue I have with them is when you can't buy a club... Its a pipe...

Our group joked that some shopkeeper went around stripping all the pipes for the underhive to sell as clubs, so people can't just "use one that was lying around"

 

[Santos]

I don't take it personally at all, I just find it odd that some people have an issue with CE because of HWL's which you can choose to ignore, and they are in LRB too (but worse ones)
The only issue I have with them is when you can't buy a club... Its a pipe...

Our group joked that some shopkeeper went around stripping all the pipes for the underhive to sell as clubs, so people can't just "use one that was lying around"

Yeah paying for club/pipes at all seems strange. I would think underhive gangs would all run with a number of improvised weapons, i just tell myself the 'free knive' covers pipes, clubs, knuckle dusters, shivs etc
While the +1S 10 credit offerings are the more sophisticated and fabricated offerings like spikes, maces and mauls.

 

[Bruticus]

There are provisions that you can get non-house list items. It still doesn't stop cawdor buying unlimited handflamers while escher can get 3 with a lucky roll and the leader misses out on rare trade.

That's only true if they don't send any gangers out shopping. If you do you could get one more item for each ganger you send. So a gang that rolls 3 rare trade items and sends 5 gangers (quite a lot, granted) could pretty much outfit everyone in the gang with new gear from a different house list.

I think most of the hatred for house weapon lists comes from not understanding or not trying them out. Sure in theory it might seem restrictive but in practise it makes such a tiny impact that you will hardly notice. If you have a goliath with a lasgun you just give up a single rare trade roll or skip working a single territory and you can buy it after the first game.

If you consider the new Goliath gang is starting out in the Goliath area with lots of other Goliath gangers and workers who mainly favour macho, noisy weapons it seems fitting they won't have lasguns to hand. But to get one they just pop off to the shop or down to a dodgy street corner and pick one up. It's not some huge deal in game terms: I wanted a heavy flamer for a goliath gang so in the first game I played I saved my creds rather than have a gun for my heavy, and after the game I went and bought one. All they really do is discourage you from equipping lots of slightly less appropriate items from the start - like a Goliath gang with a full set of plasma pistols.

I wonder if the whole rare trade/house weapon/leader weapon purchasing thing should be clarified a bit in the NCE. I think they add some nice flavour to the game but they don't seem to be worth all the drama they cause!

 

[Santos]

There are provisions that you can get non-house list items. It still doesn't stop cawdor buying unlimited handflamers while escher can get 3 with a lucky roll and the leader misses out on rare trade.

That's only true if they don't send any gangers out shopping. If you do you could get one more item for each ganger you send. So a gang that rolls 3 rare trade items and sends 5 gangers (quite a lot, granted) could pretty much outfit everyone in the gang with new gear from a different house list.

And to do that you can't work any territories. It wasn't really missed just didn't think it needed stating. Cawdor can buy all the handflamers they want, get offered d3 rare trade and have all its able bodied gangers work territories. Even if these cawdor get the arses handed to them they could still buy handflamers.

I only use the handflamers as as example as they are the most obvious weapon whose restriction effect spamming concerns. True i never ever played the House weapon List but i have played all the gangs. The HWL in the living rulebook was what put me off it in the first place looking through the NCe and i can see it just blurred the issue for some of the more extreme cases not fix it.

Going through the general NCE weapons rules more show other little tidbits. The heavy flamer, hunting rifle and autoslugger aren't really a problem, as additions they can just be ommitted. Its the altering of other items tha concerns me. Generally they all get much larger 'buffs' to improve their use. I included some of my own ideas if the weapon was to be revised, they are there just for speculation, not to prove my ideas are superior than what NCE has written.

The grenade launcher
-i agree its previous 60" range was ridiculous (effectively a heavy ordanance weapon making missile launchers pointless as i brought up in another thread)
NCe Reducing it range to 28" still makes it outshoot lasguns, autoguns and plasmaguns, gas/magnet propelled bulky grenades with better ballistic accuracy than assualt rifles.
- Plasma guns and meltagun are 'Special' and in both cases their harder hitting nature doesn't have the same 'reach and touch someone' potential. If you are going to remove the Move or fire restrictions its range should be less than an autogun .
-the User modify grenades rule before game rule is redundant. If you got a launcher you fire the grenades. No one ever decided to throw grenades if they are carrying a grenade launcher and you can't hand over grenades to another model in game anyway.
- My suggestion is shotgun range special weapon if you want to move and fire weapon, a grenade launcher should not be the most expensive than plasma/melta technology to manufacturer its original expense in game probably arose from the fact it was such a powerful weapon. a 60 to 90 cred starting point plus grenades.


Heavy Plasma Gun
- Maximum charge gas cloud blast marker. Fun idea compared to ORB/LRb but with its other rules extremely overpowered.
- The Gets hot rule is a joke. 33 % chance you are good to fire at S8 5" blast onmax charge again next round, 33% chance you aren't aloud to fire a turn and 33% you take a S1,S2 or at worse S3 hit and not fire a turn. NCe players must not really have taken this in much cause it outstrips any other weapon in the game. 5" S8 pie plate? Bring forth the HtH leaders with there flock of meatshield juves!
-Suggestions make it a S5/S6 plasma weapon on High/Low if you going 5"/3" templates, keep the old energy rule that you miss a turn for recharging on max.

Missile Launcher Another gas cloud blast. Here i think it might be appropriate when compared to the 60" not-a-heavy-weapon-grenade launcher, you can't throw missiles so it would show some differentiation between the two. With a neutered grenade launcher its less nescessary. Offering a more expensive super-frag missile alongside its 2" frag cousin could make it fun.

Power 'shock' maul This update i'm uncertain on. Whilst i agree the original power mauls ability to auto-out-of-action had limited use giving a special injury table seems unnecesary. A suggestion would be just make it have the same potential as any other weapon to injure with the option that if it auto-out-of-actions multiple combatants they make full recoveries. This represents desperate glancing blows rather than measured destructive swings

Power Axe +S3 and +S4 double handed? fail. The original was S5 one handed (+s2). Its cheaper than a power sword it doesn't need to be stronger, by this stage its not about blunt force trauma unlike a plain sword vs plain club. All my old campaigns we used house rules for +1S chainswords and +2S power weapons.

handflamer No wonder people would hate spamming this. i actually like the handflamer in the living rulebook over the original because it cuts down on the number of templates. Having played exterminator rich redemptionist i can see its merits, though it takes the shine away from needing a exterminator . Making handflamers a continuous s3 flamer just begs for it to be given in pairs to a juve outstriping a special weapons catergory flamer wielding heavy that cost more.

The webpistol and needle rifle/pistol updates i cant comment on. No one ever used them in our campaigns, even if you had a ludicrous amounts of credits in your stash to afford these items they just bumped up your gang rating needlessly. The few times it rained credits you would more likely see every ganger had a plasma pistol or something of the like.

Some of the original and living rulebook weapons could do with reworking but NCe seems to consistantly Buff weapons too much, especially since costing has remained largely unchanged.

 

[horundwar]

Ok first up Scooter I didn't read all the post's it started to all look the same. I think you should have a good read of the NCE again as it is an attempt by someone like you who likes playing Necromunda to make it a better game for all. Not by inventing new things(everything in the NCE has been sourced from somewhere) and "making things up" but by applying fixes we all did as a matter of coarse to the rules. Then the lovely chap actually wrote all these fixes into a copy we could download(thanks again btw) and use, test or amend for ourselves.

I think it would be better if you just accepted that GW failed us and that some are prepared to at least try and fix a game we all have a fondness for. Play the NCE without changes, see how it works in reality and like all of us here if you find obvious or not so obvious issues simply post them on the forum. Then sit back and watch us argue at length(why cant we all just get along...ha just kidding) on a fix. Don't forget that the person primarily responsible for the NCE is more than happy to discuss issues with community and make changes.

As much as I reminisce about the 'old' days I don't think being a luddite is doing you any favours.

P.S. whah whah poor me house weapon list moan b#tch, seriously I am sick of seeing people cry about it.