N18 Another Van Saar list

MrAndersson

Ganger
Sep 18, 2018
226
155
48
Halmstad, Sweden
The thing with Fast shot is that it's not as awesome as it initially sounds. The number of rounds where you actually get to use it are not that many. Oftentimes, you either need to move, stand up or reload to get a shot off, and those rounds it is wasted.

Also, with a scarce weapon, the total number of shots you get to fire is (statistically) limited. Fast shot only means you can burn through those shots faster, but you don't get more of them. Sure, doing damage early in a game is always better than doing it later, but again the benefits of the skill are less than one might think.
 
Jun 8, 2018
58
83
33
Australia
Totally understandable. All good useful info bud thanks again!
You can stand up and shoot with fast shot just fyi
Any long term campaign gang building goals advice? Advances/equipment?
 

MrAndersson

Ganger
Sep 18, 2018
226
155
48
Halmstad, Sweden
Standing up is an action, so you can't shoot twice with Fast shot when you do it. Unless you get extra actions from somewhere else, of course.

Trick shot and Fast shot are both good skills. But when they are combined they multiply each other. So whichever you start with, you should aim at getting the other one when you advance.

For the lasgun equipped gangers, there are two possible ways (if you are aiming for maximum efficiency) to develop them, after they have gotten mesh armour like the rest of the gang.
- Give them hotshot las packs
- Give them boltguns or grenade launchers, and keep the lasguns as backup weapons

Hotshots are the budget option, turning the otherwise crappy lasguns into something decent for a fairly cheap 20 creds. Giving them a boltgun or grenade launcher, though, turns them into much more of a threat, but at a greater cost.
Which way you go is heavily influenced by your plans for the rest of the gang. If you are planning to get your hands on some heavy weapons, for example, you might want to keep your gangers as cheap as possible.
 

Petitioner's City

Gang Champion
Nov 15, 2017
415
813
133
Edinburgh, UK
As an arbitrator, I might suggest not playing this because while it is optimised, it is also incredibly standard and ultimately ... cookie cutter?

To explain further, this is basically the same list three van saar players used in my last campaign, and it's deeply unfair in its "power value" vs other gangs. While players may have certain counters (such as cards like cut their supply, click, history of violence, dangerous footing, blackout, etc), four 4+ saves with nasty str5 at 24"/30" with warforge at bs2+/3+ is not exactly fun to play against - especially since it will most likely magnify in power throughout a campaign. Further it just pushes people to standardised or cookie cutter card use and gang development to counter this kind of gang design.

The flaw is of course the gang options as published, which makes it hard to resist this "get out of jail free" design. However, given the esoteric (yet utterly unoptimised but more interesting) options open to van saar specifically and to all gangs throughout the trading post and black market, I think you can make for yourself a more risky but more varied and ultimately rewarding playing experience.
 
Jun 8, 2018
58
83
33
Australia
Normally you cant stand up and shoot because both are basic actions. Fast shot makes it a standard action letting you do it twice in the same round or once and a basic?
 

spafe

Executive Officer in charge of Hats
Staff member
Necromunda Custodian
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Tribe Council
Feb 8, 2013
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you cannot perform the SAME basic action, you can perform 2 different basic actions in your turn. so anyone can stand up and shoot, but no-one could stand up twice (not an issue), or shot twice (without skills obvs).
 

MrAndersson

Ganger
Sep 18, 2018
226
155
48
Halmstad, Sweden
As an arbitrator, I might suggest not playing this because while it is optimised, it is also incredibly standard and ultimately ... cookie cutter?
I strongly disagree with this attitude.

If you, as an arbitrator, don't like the imbalances in Necromunda (and you are fully entitled to), then take steps towards a better balance. Change the costs or stat lines of weapons and fighters.

But don't bully players away from the lists they want to play just because you don't like them.
 

Petitioner's City

Gang Champion
Nov 15, 2017
415
813
133
Edinburgh, UK
I strongly disagree with this attitude.

If you, as an arbitrator, don't like the imbalances in Necromunda (and you are fully entitled to), then take steps towards a better balance. Change the costs or stat lines of weapons and fighters.

But don't bully players away from the lists they want to play just because you don't like them.
I have changed things massively in my campaign, with my player's consent, and we have a very rewritten ruleset to avoid this (including limits on rare weapons, changed stats, etc). For example, our van saar are cheaper but far less overpowered. It's not perfect, and we are playtesting it in campaign at the moment, but I think it helps fix a real problem with the van saar as published in gang war 3 and the compendium.

I wouldnt say I'm bullying Spiraling Cadaver, and I wish you would restrain from langauge like that - I think everything I said is valid and comes from running two campaigns. As you know, this kind of van saar list isn't easy nor enjoyable to play against if you are a less strong player, and a list like it only gets more powerful through the campaign through income and indeed the addition of bolters and grenade launchers like advised above.

It's an invitation to make something that doesnt feel like it's roleplaying the setting. Yes things can go wrong in a campaign (that unexpected 66, etc), but it's far more likely things will go better for a player using it than those with other starting gangs, given the deadly, repetitive, numerous examples of heavy firepower and strong armour it can easily and cheaply deploy

Sorry if this set off something in you, but it's my problem with the rules as published making this a too easy choice that just doesn't feel very true to indeed my views of the game or setting.
 

MrAndersson

Ganger
Sep 18, 2018
226
155
48
Halmstad, Sweden
I have changed things massively in my campaign, with my player's consent, and we have a very rewritten ruleset to avoid this (including limits on rare weapons, changed stats, etc). For example, our van saar are cheaper but far less overpowered. It's not perfect, and we are playtesting it in campaign at the moment, but I think it helps fix a real problem with the van saar as published in gang war 3 and the compendium.
Then lists like this shouldn't be a problem.

I wouldnt say I'm bullying Spiraling Cadaver, and I wish you would restrain from langauge like that - I think everything I said is valid and comes from running two campaigns.
I am not saying you are bullying him, or anyone else. I am saying you (in the general sense of the word) shouldn't tell players how to run their own gangs.

"Bully" might be too strong of a word. Sorry. English is not my first language.
 
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