What do people think of the idea of items created by the (techno) inventor skill only being usable by the gang who made it? It would stop ridiculous exploits like selling OIAM lascannons and skyrocketing ahead of the opposition. It also makes sense that merchants would be less keen to buy some custom-made prototype that probably needs the expertise of the inventor to avoid blowing up half the time!
You could have them create the item at half the base price instead of free. They surely need to source parts, I don't buy that anyone is cobbling together medkits and OIAM weapons out of stuff they find in bin bags!
Edit: I also never found inventor to be the big issue on the techno table. A 1/6 chance of inventing and a 90% chance that the item will be junk isn't too bad, although obviously the best result is really strong. Medic is the big issue; I'd rather give everyone decent access to the reroll ability and let Techno users do something else (like remove old SIs). One of the Van Saars' most frustrating properties is how resistant they are to death. They keep their best gangers and seldom have to buy replacements.
Edit: I also never found inventor to be the big issue on the techno table. A 1/6 chance of inventing and a 90% chance that the item will be junk isn't too bad, although obviously the best result is really strong. Medic is the big issue; I'd rather give everyone decent access to the reroll ability and let Techno users do something else (like remove old SIs). One of the Van Saars' most frustrating properties is how resistant they are to death. They keep their best gangers and seldom have to buy replacements.
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I agree. If I'd get a OIAM heavy weapon, I'd definitely choose a Heavy Bolter and use it. That or a missile launcher. Besides, an OIAM Lascannon "only" sells for 300, that's just a few games. However, it does make sense to not be able to exploit it, which makes me agree with OP.
Always thought Inventor was over the top, 1 in 6 chance of making something means it can happen quite often in gangs with multiple models with the skill (Van Saar).
The Half-Price suggestion sounds quite good to me (as a Filthy Scavvy), but perhaps as it would no-longer be entirely free it might need some kind of amendment to permit the gang to buy it a game or two later- If the gang cannot afford the pieces required to finish the Inventor's project they may roll a D3, and may wait up to that many games before buying it (if the Inventor that was working on the project dies witin this time then they cannot finish making their Invention).
*shrugs*, the only time I have had any issues with the Inventor skill so far has been late in campaigns where I'm already "losing" because I play for theme/fluff/fun and if my opponent has been rolling a lot if One In A Million weapons I don't mind getting my butt handed to me...
Any Van Saar players want to weigh in?
The Half-Price suggestion sounds quite good to me (as a Filthy Scavvy), but perhaps as it would no-longer be entirely free it might need some kind of amendment to permit the gang to buy it a game or two later- If the gang cannot afford the pieces required to finish the Inventor's project they may roll a D3, and may wait up to that many games before buying it (if the Inventor that was working on the project dies witin this time then they cannot finish making their Invention).
*shrugs*, the only time I have had any issues with the Inventor skill so far has been late in campaigns where I'm already "losing" because I play for theme/fluff/fun and if my opponent has been rolling a lot if One In A Million weapons I don't mind getting my butt handed to me...
Any Van Saar players want to weigh in?
I'm not a guy that plays a lot, but I've played around 20 games with Van Saar - and failed to invent anything during those.
I played a lot of Van Saar (in ORB, so this is all based on those rules) and I viewed Inventor as a poor skill to roll. It doesn't help you win; it does nothing at all most of the time, and when it works it usually makes junk. Armourer, Medic and Specialist are the choice skills on the Techno table. The Shooting table, on the other hand, is almost pure gold. Crack Shot is weak, Fast Shot requires additional advances in order to have any effect at all (but is probably the second-best skill after Medic with 2A, and definitely the best skill with 3A). The other four are easily in the top 10 skills in the game. In the ORB, though, the number of useful skills doesn't go far beyond that top 10.
spafe
Executive Officer in charge of Hats
Staff member
Necromunda Custodian
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Tribe Council
My cawdor gang has managed to roll up 2 inventors, although only 2 games with htem so far... no fancy inventions (or any inventions!) yet, due one next game though.
Under LRB my main opponent used a van saar gang that got nasty, but not due to inventing heavy weapons... due to inventing full stop!
They gained some medics (nice), some specialists (powerful), and some inventors. The inventors meant they grew to a size of about 20 strong, as the inventors made items to sell to give them income, and whenever they came up with some nice weapons, they kept them to help out. That gang ended up with about 5 plasma guns, a heavy stubber, a heavy bolter and a flamer or 2, plus some power weapons on a combat nutter or 2. It was a scary gang, but only allowed to exist due to inventor... although there wasn't any OiaM from memory, although the bolter might have been, but with the 2+ ammo rolls they didn't really need it...
Under LRB my main opponent used a van saar gang that got nasty, but not due to inventing heavy weapons... due to inventing full stop!
They gained some medics (nice), some specialists (powerful), and some inventors. The inventors meant they grew to a size of about 20 strong, as the inventors made items to sell to give them income, and whenever they came up with some nice weapons, they kept them to help out. That gang ended up with about 5 plasma guns, a heavy stubber, a heavy bolter and a flamer or 2, plus some power weapons on a combat nutter or 2. It was a scary gang, but only allowed to exist due to inventor... although there wasn't any OiaM from memory, although the bolter might have been, but with the 2+ ammo rolls they didn't really need it...
Yep, it's a problem that creds earnt from inventions don't have to be run through the usual income chart, making them pure profit. This means a techno gang can sustain a large horde (20+) while relying purely on inventions for income. OIAMW aren't the only problem here, since there are loads of expensive items on the rare trade list. I'm not sure how people can be arguing how having more (and better armed) models doesn't help you win games...
That said, specialist and medic are also overpowered. The entire skill list needs a (modest) debuff imho
spafe
Executive Officer in charge of Hats
Staff member
Necromunda Custodian
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Tribe Council
That's where fixer, armourer etc have had a slight debuff, and the others now require your guy to not go OOA to work, meaning that your specialist who is also a medic might not want to get in harms way with a flamer due to not being able to medic himself (ever) or anyone else (if he then goes ooa).
Since playing NCE the techno table hasn't stood out as being the auto go to for me, My doubles have resulted in a couple of rolls on shooting and stealth as well as techno, so to me they arnt stand out always go to.
Since playing NCE the techno table hasn't stood out as being the auto go to for me, My doubles have resulted in a couple of rolls on shooting and stealth as well as techno, so to me they arnt stand out always go to.
Having played Van Saar for two campaigns, I've invented two items in total. I roll once or twice on the techno table the first skills I get for almost all members, unless I got bs advances before.
I'd rather see that invented items are either not sellable, or that you have to run the money from selling those items through the income chart. Making it cost money to invent stuff will more or less remove the outcome of OIAM heavy weapons.
I'd rather see that invented items are either not sellable, or that you have to run the money from selling those items through the income chart. Making it cost money to invent stuff will more or less remove the outcome of OIAM heavy weapons.
Well that's just bad luck. If you have multiple people rolling on techno you should have multiple inventors within a few games. That means every post-game you have a very high chance of getting a free item, often worth 100s of creds. Totally imbalanced as it stands. But yeah, I'm happy with the idea of the items not being sell-able as a balance.
I think multiple inventors after a few games is overambitious. If you take every single skill roll as techno (including 2 and 12), you should get inventor once in 18 advances (although the chance increases as fighters collect other techno skills). It'll take more than a few games to get several. And that's if you never ever roll shooting skills, which is probably not ideal.
It's also not often that an item is worth hundreds of credits. IIRC in NCE that would only be OIAM heavy weapons, and in ORB the needle rifle too. Overall the skill is not especially useful but has a small chance of hitting the jackpot. I'd rather have one of the shooting skills that gives multiple shots and works every time.
It's also not often that an item is worth hundreds of credits. IIRC in NCE that would only be OIAM heavy weapons, and in ORB the needle rifle too. Overall the skill is not especially useful but has a small chance of hitting the jackpot. I'd rather have one of the shooting skills that gives multiple shots and works every time.
Balancing the Skill Tables, especially Techno, could quite possibly be the thing that has received the most work in the NCE process. I think it plays quite fair as is right now.
Edit: these figures are for Van Saar!!
Disclaimer 1: The XP rate used in the following calculations are probably a bit low due to me not having played in a while. The bottom line remains unchanged, though - on average you need 9 advances before you get Inventor.
Let's do the maths on a typical gang, leader, two heavies, five gangers and one juve (not taking into account gang members bought after inital roster). Let's say that all gang members get an average of 6 exp per game. I don't think that's far off (3,5 exp average on diceroll + 1/2 kill per game. The leader gets and average of 10 per game due to the "winning gang leader" XP.
The chance of getting a new techno skill per advance is 33,33% (source). First roll on techno has a 16,66% chance of getting Inventor. Second roll has a 33%% chance of getting techno. Third roll has a 50% chance. This is due to getting to pick any skill if you roll one you already have.
Disclaimer 2: I'm not a math teacher! Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong! And I know that probability and "probability" ain't exactly the same thing.
Juves (starts with 4 xp):
* XP after 10 games: 64.
* Number of advances: 8
* Number of techno advances after 10 games rounded down/(actual): 2/(2,66)
* Probability of getting inventor after 10 games rounded down/(actual): 50%/(83,33%)
* Number of games needed on average to get inventor: 13 (81+ XP/9 advances)
Gangers (start with 24):
* XP after 10 games: 84
* Number of advances: 5
* Number of techno advances after 10 games rounded down/(actual): 1/(1,66)
* Probability of getting inventor after 10 games rounded down/(actual): 16,66%/(38,88%)
* Number of games needed on average to get inventor: 23
Heavies (start with 64):
* Xp after 10 games: 124
* Number of advances: 3
* Number of techno advances after 10 games rounded down/(actual): 1/(1)
* Probability of getting inventor after 10 games rounded down/(actual): 16,66%/(16,66%)
* Number of games needed on average to get inventor: 37
Leaders (start with 64):
* XP after 10 games: 164
* Number of advances: 5
* Probability of techno advances after 10 games rounded down/(actual): 1/(1,66)
* Probability of getting inventor after 10 games rounded down/(actual): 16,66%/38,88%
* Number of games needed on average to get inventor: 22
Total probability getting Inventor after ten games (actual):
Juve (1x): 83,33%
Gangers (5x): 194,4%
Heavies (2x): 77,76%
Leader (1x): 38,88%
Total total: 394,37%
Ten games having selected Techno at every oportunity should yield you nearly four inventors using this gang.
Disclaimer 3: These numbers are so high I'm assuming that I fucked up the calculation in one or more ways.
Disclaimer 1: The XP rate used in the following calculations are probably a bit low due to me not having played in a while. The bottom line remains unchanged, though - on average you need 9 advances before you get Inventor.
Let's do the maths on a typical gang, leader, two heavies, five gangers and one juve (not taking into account gang members bought after inital roster). Let's say that all gang members get an average of 6 exp per game. I don't think that's far off (3,5 exp average on diceroll + 1/2 kill per game. The leader gets and average of 10 per game due to the "winning gang leader" XP.
The chance of getting a new techno skill per advance is 33,33% (source). First roll on techno has a 16,66% chance of getting Inventor. Second roll has a 33%% chance of getting techno. Third roll has a 50% chance. This is due to getting to pick any skill if you roll one you already have.
Disclaimer 2: I'm not a math teacher! Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong! And I know that probability and "probability" ain't exactly the same thing.
Juves (starts with 4 xp):
* XP after 10 games: 64.
* Number of advances: 8
* Number of techno advances after 10 games rounded down/(actual): 2/(2,66)
* Probability of getting inventor after 10 games rounded down/(actual): 50%/(83,33%)
* Number of games needed on average to get inventor: 13 (81+ XP/9 advances)
Gangers (start with 24):
* XP after 10 games: 84
* Number of advances: 5
* Number of techno advances after 10 games rounded down/(actual): 1/(1,66)
* Probability of getting inventor after 10 games rounded down/(actual): 16,66%/(38,88%)
* Number of games needed on average to get inventor: 23
Heavies (start with 64):
* Xp after 10 games: 124
* Number of advances: 3
* Number of techno advances after 10 games rounded down/(actual): 1/(1)
* Probability of getting inventor after 10 games rounded down/(actual): 16,66%/(16,66%)
* Number of games needed on average to get inventor: 37
Leaders (start with 64):
* XP after 10 games: 164
* Number of advances: 5
* Probability of techno advances after 10 games rounded down/(actual): 1/(1,66)
* Probability of getting inventor after 10 games rounded down/(actual): 16,66%/38,88%
* Number of games needed on average to get inventor: 22
Total probability getting Inventor after ten games (actual):
Juve (1x): 83,33%
Gangers (5x): 194,4%
Heavies (2x): 77,76%
Leader (1x): 38,88%
Total total: 394,37%
Ten games having selected Techno at every oportunity should yield you nearly four inventors using this gang.
Disclaimer 3: These numbers are so high I'm assuming that I fucked up the calculation in one or more ways.
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I thought I should point out that these figures are for Van Saar - other gangs will have WAAAAAY lower odds.
As an engineer, the numbers seem correct enough to be appropriate. It doesn't need to be that exact for this kind of approximation. Of course, they don't take into account that you might want to take other skill advances depending on the situation, but it seems correct enough.
Personally, I don't find Inventor to be broken, nor any of the other skills in Techno. While I'd agree it's probably one of the most generally useful skill categories, with Fixer potentially being the most boring/least useful, it's still useful. Not like getting Berserk Charge on a sniper with two leg injuries.
As far as anecdotal evidence go, both my Orlock gang and the rival Escher both managed to snag two inventors early on, and mine mostly seemed to invent (at least two) Stinger Pouches, (at least two) Hidden Blades and a OIAM Bolter while the Eschers seemed to invent armour, armour, armour, more armour and a Power Fist. I don't feel that it's been a very unbalancing factor in the games. The Delaque gang, who's had NO inventors, still regularly kick us both with luck, even after his gang leader died due to a series of unfortunate events (never letting you live that down, @Olle Berglund ).
Also, as a final thought, I'd probably use any and all OIAM weapons I'd invent, since you pick from the relevant category. Invent a OIAM pistol? Plasma or Bolt. Or a hand flamer for the ultimate charge thwarter. Invent a OIAM Basic weapon? Just alleviated all the greatest weaknesses of the Boltgun, namely price and ammo roll. Invented a special weapon? Pick whatever you fancy. They're all fantastic now, although plasma weapons gain the most benefit. OIAM heavy? Pick that Heavy bolter, nevermind the ammo roll, and go to town.
Personally, I don't find Inventor to be broken, nor any of the other skills in Techno. While I'd agree it's probably one of the most generally useful skill categories, with Fixer potentially being the most boring/least useful, it's still useful. Not like getting Berserk Charge on a sniper with two leg injuries.
As far as anecdotal evidence go, both my Orlock gang and the rival Escher both managed to snag two inventors early on, and mine mostly seemed to invent (at least two) Stinger Pouches, (at least two) Hidden Blades and a OIAM Bolter while the Eschers seemed to invent armour, armour, armour, more armour and a Power Fist. I don't feel that it's been a very unbalancing factor in the games. The Delaque gang, who's had NO inventors, still regularly kick us both with luck, even after his gang leader died due to a series of unfortunate events (never letting you live that down, @Olle Berglund ).
Also, as a final thought, I'd probably use any and all OIAM weapons I'd invent, since you pick from the relevant category. Invent a OIAM pistol? Plasma or Bolt. Or a hand flamer for the ultimate charge thwarter. Invent a OIAM Basic weapon? Just alleviated all the greatest weaknesses of the Boltgun, namely price and ammo roll. Invented a special weapon? Pick whatever you fancy. They're all fantastic now, although plasma weapons gain the most benefit. OIAM heavy? Pick that Heavy bolter, nevermind the ammo roll, and go to town.
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If a gang picks Techno every time over Shooting, and Inventor over Armourer, Specialist or Medic, I think a OIAM heavy bolter will be the absolute minimum they'll need just to try and catch up to gangs who haven't done that. I rate it as the fourth best Techno skill in NCE and fourth or fifth in ORB (Fixer beats it if there's a 2D6x10 territory available). Fixer and Weaponsmith look to be weaker.
As a person with an Eldar warband with 3 inventors I like to add: I'ts a fun addition to have, but it's not going to do thát much. I have a 50% chance of inventing something, as long as all my inventors survive, so far it has been a hot shot laser pack, brain chip and a stinger pouch. Useful, but not game breaking.
Of course I'm hoping to build that OIAM Eldar dark lance someday, But it's a one in 3/36 * 1/6 chance of doing that even after the 1/2 chance I have of inventing anything at all. That's less than a percent. Hardly game breaking, the other times it's just fun gadgets, or some extra money I get for not choosing any skills that are relevant in battle. (also decreasing the chance of surviving the battle to invent something!)
And half of the time it's nothing at all.
Of course I'm hoping to build that OIAM Eldar dark lance someday, But it's a one in 3/36 * 1/6 chance of doing that even after the 1/2 chance I have of inventing anything at all. That's less than a percent.
Hardly game breaking, the other times it's just fun gadgets, or some extra money I get for not choosing any skills that are relevant in battle. (also decreasing the chance of surviving the battle to invent something!)And half of the time it's nothing at all.
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