N18 Bikes and Unwieldy

Thorfinn

Ganger
Aug 23, 2018
79
86
18
Florida
Trying to figure out how bikes can interact with the Unwieldy rule - for guns as well as for close-combat weapons.

Unwieldy says that to shoot is a Double action (so no moving or aiming), that it takes up two hands (so no dual wielding), and that it takes the space of two weapons for your fighter (so they can carry a max of two, rather than the usual three).

Bikes say you can't use weapons with Unwieldy. So that seems pretty cut and dry. However, we have two conditions that counteract Unwieldy in their own ways.

Bulging Biceps: Originally, this used to ignore the effects of Unwieldy for that model, though, technically did not remove the trait form the weapon, so it could be argued that as the weapon still technically HAS Unwieldy, that the Bike restriction on weapons with Unwieldy would still apply. The new and current wording of Bulging Biceps just says the fighter may wield it in one hand (instead of two). Seems to be more intended for close-combat, so you can have that extra weapon attack, but for shooting, you should be able to dual wield and fire that heavy stubber from one hand and a bolt pistol from the other. But that seems to be all Bulging Biceps does. It's still a Double action to shoot, and it still takes two weapon slots.

Suspensors: This add on allows you to shoot the weapon as a Basic action, allowing your fighter to move or aim. That's it. It's still taking two slots, and it still takes two hands.

So back to the Bike rules. It implies with the wording that Unwieldy weapons are restricted because they take two hands, and you need at least one to steer. Also, since a bike will basically always be moving, you can't fire on the move with an unweildy gun (Double action).

One could argue, if the spirit (not RAI, and certainly not RAW) that if Bulging Biceps allows your fighter to Rambo that heavy bolter, that he should be able to steer with the other hand, and that he could be allowed to carry the gun on a bike. Still would have to stop to shoot, as shooting is still a Double action. One could further argue, that a suspensor, in addition to Bulging Biceps would allow you to fire, one-handed, while on the move.

One could carry that argument over to close-combat weapons, though the suspensor doesn't apply. So the fighter could conceivably one-hand that Eviscerator (and no other close-combat weapon simultaneously) while driving a bike.

So thoughts... How do (or would) you guys handle this in your games and campaigns?
 
Both of the 'solutions' you have listed only mitigate the effect of unwieldy. They do not remove the unwieldy trait, meaning they are still unwieldy weapons and cannot be combined with a mount
 
Absolutely correct, and by RAW, the only way to go.

I'm wondering how people are handling this in their games/campaigns in terms of the "spirit of the law".
 
No problem finding excuses to use heavy weapons on bikes. But instead of going the route of wielding it in a hand or hands, why not mount it to the bike?

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Attaching heavy weapons to bikes is not exactly controversial. I grew up with it in the 90s and it's still very much in use I think. No problem with huge unwieldy close combat weapons either (at least not if you're an ork):
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Not allowed Unwieldy trait weapons unless they also have the Lance trait as per rules page 36 for mounted condition. Rule-book says no weapon hard points on mounts ans you're only allowed to add hard points if you call it a light/custom vehicle and pay the extra cost as per page 41 in outlands book.
Now then lets get to the interesting question, how does the Ironheads skill 'Nobody pushes kyn around' interact with mounted condition?? Rules say vehicle should be treated as terrain so when riding in a transport bed (and firing 'passenger operated' guns) they never get shot off a vehicle right?? That seems to be the designers intention to me. Not sure you can stretch this skill to motorbikes though. Any thoughts???
 
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Not allowed Unwieldy trait weapons unless they also have the Lance trait as per rules page 36 for mounted condition. Rule-book says no weapon hard points on mounts ans you're only allowed to add hard points if you call it a light/custom vehicle and pay the extra cost as per page 41 in outlands book.
Now then lets get to the interesting question, how does the Ironheads skill 'Nobody pushes kyn around' interact with mounted condition?? Rules say vehicle should be treated as terrain so when riding in a transport bed (and firing 'passenger operated' guns) they never get shot off a vehicle right?? That seems to be the designers intention to me. Not sure you can stretch this skill to motorbikes though. Any thoughts???
I was thinking about the same, but as IT Is written, IT shouldn't work on bikes And with squats on vehicle, you need a transport věd anyway, nobody pushes kin around should work, but only champs have access to it. Andd hitting squats on bike is not a good idea with their initiative.
 
I was thinking about the same, but as IT Is written, IT shouldn't work on bikes And with squats on vehicle, you need a transport věd anyway, nobody pushes kin around should work, but only champs have access to it. Andd hitting squats on bike is not a good idea with their initiative.
Yeah I've got a Goliath Rockgrinder with a 'Passenger Operated' mining laser, 3 or 4 different squats took turns getting shot off the transport bed trying to fire it last game so I figure a new Champ with 'Nobody Pushes Kyn Around' and minimal weapons is my next recruit.
 
Not allowed Unwieldy trait weapons unless they also have the Lance trait as per rules page 36 for mounted condition. Rule-book says no weapon hard points on mounts ans you're only allowed to add hard points if you call it a light/custom vehicle and pay the extra cost as per page 41 in outlands book.
Now then lets get to the interesting question, how does the Ironheads skill 'Nobody pushes kyn around' interact with mounted condition?? Rules say vehicle should be treated as terrain so when riding in a transport bed (and firing 'passenger operated' guns) they never get shot off a vehicle right?? That seems to be the designers intention to me. Not sure you can stretch this skill to motorbikes though. Any thoughts???
Wonder how that works with the new Escher and Goliath bikes then. I'm sure the Warcom article describes the Escher bike at least as a mount and it has heavy weapons on (Heavy Stubber).
 
I cant see it having movement 9" and twin linked Plasma guns for 'mounted' but if it does it should be pricey. 50 for bikes plus 30 for grav-cutter? and then the weapons on top so 180-280 credits?! Goliath bike will never see the table if its 'mounted' - they'd spend the whole game trying to get back on with their bad Initiative. mounted condition is a little bit weird to me when it comes to the bugs, they can get a skill which gives the bug an attack in close combat but dont normally fight and cant be killed or broken or blinded separately to the rider. Something about that feels odd.
Who knows, perhaps they are just breaking their own rules straight away and calling the house vehicles exceptions. I was planning an Esher hoverbikes and shock whips gang before they announced that, not sure what to make of it now.
Hopefully Escher/Goliath and other house vehicles will be in the new Cinderak city campaign book, or better yet pdf on warcom.
 
I cant see it having movement 9" and twin linked Plasma guns for 'mounted' but if it does it should be pricey. 50 for bikes plus 30 for grav-cutter? and then the weapons on top so 180-280 credits?! Goliath bike will never see the table if its 'mounted' - they'd spend the whole game trying to get back on with their bad Initiative. mounted condition is a little bit weird to me when it comes to the bugs, they can get a skill which gives the bug an attack in close combat but dont normally fight and cant be killed or broken or blinded separately to the rider. Something about that feels odd.
Who knows, perhaps they are just breaking their own rules straight away and calling the house vehicles exceptions. I was planning an Esher hoverbikes and shock whips gang before they announced that, not sure what to make of it now.
Hopefully Escher/Goliath and other house vehicles will be in the new Cinderak city campaign book, or better yet pdf on warcom.
Escher and Goliath are in the first campaign book. It'll be the next 3 books to own all house vehicle rules.
Perceptive hivers will note that Cutters don’t count as vehicles – instead, much like the dirtbikes found in the Book of the Outlands, they grant the Mounted condition. That means they’re personal equipment, and can be handed to Queens, Matriarchs, Prospects, or even Death Maidens. Of course, with a 9” move, if your gang leader is clipped at top speed, she’s really going to feel it when she reconnects with the ground. Better hope that famous Escher Initiative helps her cling on…
This is the section from Warcom article that stated it. It's pretty unambiguous about it being Mounted. The Goliath article had crew characteristics so guessing they are vehicles..
 
Escher and Goliath are in the first campaign book. It'll be the next 3 books to own all house vehicle rules.

This is the section from Warcom article that stated it. It's pretty unambiguous about it being Mounted. The Goliath article had crew characteristics so guessing they are vehicles..
Cool, they sound a bit OP to me - use overseer to give order and group activate, move bike 18" then activate again and after moving 27" you can turn a corner and shoot the opponents vehicle in the back or side with double plasma on full power. I'm sure that wont annoy anyone.
I actually find it very difficult to read the warcom articles because they are so cringe-worthy. So I just scan the pictures most of the time and read the rule bit in boxes. Another 3 books!! seems excessive even for GW.
 
What happens when I use falsehoods on a helamite bug's rider and play against, say, enforcers?
Surely it is not suspicious in the slightest that an enforcer sergeant is riding towards your squad on an ash wasteland's creature - at ease patrolman!
 
What happens when I use falsehoods on a helamite bug's rider and play against, say, enforcers?
Surely it is not suspicious in the slightest that an enforcer sergeant is riding towards your squad on an ash wasteland's creature - at ease patrolman!
I'm defo stealing that sneaky trick
 
Escher and Goliath are in the first campaign book. It'll be the next 3 books to own all house vehicle rules.

This is the section from Warcom article that stated it. It's pretty unambiguous about it being Mounted. The Goliath article had crew characteristics so guessing they are vehicles..
I don't dispute the article but what has had me thinking is the fact they were very explicit in a text box in outlands that anything big enough for a hardpoint should be represented by a light vehicle and not a mount.

It could also be 2 books, we could see 3 in the second book
 
I don't dispute the article but what has had me thinking is the fact they were very explicit in a text box in outlands that anything big enough for a hardpoint should be represented by a light vehicle and not a mount.
Agreed, but they retain the right to "alter the deal". The problem was how they worded it, that because it's a "mount", that you can give it to anyone. It's because it's wargear that you can give it to anyone. "mounted" is the condition that wargear gives to the bearer.
 
In my case, I have a situation where I'm building a new gang, and I wanted to give my leader a heavy weapon. Never tried that before; it' an option, and I can make it look cool. Now that bikes are a thing, I wanted to also give my leader a bike, because he shouldn't be riding around in the back of a truck with the unwashed masses. By RAW, I have to shelve the heavy weapon when he mounts up, which means setting aside my gang's main heavy firepower when they're on the road, since I can't reassign weapons to say another vehicle. And since I can't have my leader driving a vehicle, I cant go that route.

Potentially, I could build a light vehicle, with a transport area for my leader, but I can't mount the gun to the hardpoint, because that would have to be a different weapon, because his can't be assigned. I suppose he could be in the transport area and fire his own heavy weapon. That said, I didn't want his ride to be a two-man thing.

So that's why I was asking the initial question. Trying to get some ideas on a community consensus on how these rules can interact, and possibly allow some wiggle room.
 
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In my case, I have a situation where I'm building a new gang, and I wanted to give my leader a heavy weapon. Never tried that before; it' an option, and I can make it look cool. Now that bikes are a thing, I wanted to also give my leader a bike, because he shouldn't be riding around in the back of a truck with the unwashed masses. By RAW, I have to shelve the heavy weapon when he mounts up, which means setting aside my gang's main heavy firepower when they're on the road, since I can't reassign weapons to say another vehicle. And since I can't have my leader driving a vehicle, I cant go that route.

Potentially, I could build a light vehicle, with a transport area for my leader, but I can't mount the gun to the hardpoint, because that would have to be a different weapon, because his can't be assigned. I suppose he could be in the transport area and fire his own heavy weapon. That said, I didn't want his ride to be a two-man thing.

So that's why I was asking the initial question. Trying to get some ideas on a community consensus on how these rules can interact, and possibly allow some wiggle room.
I’m intrigued that they put ‘underslung’ in bold in the WarComm article when talking about the cutters’ weapons. I know the WarComm team aren’t given full access to the rules and aren’t super reliable, but it did make me wonder if it will be a weapon trait that allows them to carry those weapons, presumably bestowing certain costs, advantages/drawbacks, and limitations
 
That's a good point.

Most likely, those will be locked weapon options for the bike. Underslung may be part of the name for those specific options, but also a trait for them. That trait may mean that they're locked into a straight trajectory or something. Like you can only fire at something directly in front of you.
 
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