N18 Blast and Pitch Black

[TopsyKretts]

The general consensus seem to be that Blast ignores Pitch Black. Or that's my understanding at least. But is this potentially simplified? Blast can target a fighter or a point on the battlefield. Targeting a point on the battlefield ignores Pitch Black. But targeting a fighter perhaps does not?

It won't usually be relevant because targeting a point on the battlefield next to the fighter that is the actual target is usually better in many situations because how strong Blast is for circumventing penalties and special rules:

• Negative hit modifier from cover.
• Terrifying and other special rules.

However, in some situations the fighter may be in LOS, but not any point on the battlefield in close vicinity is in LOS:

The target may be on a higher level or blocked by intervening barricade.

 

[VikToLive]

No. Pitch Black states that all models have the Hidden condition, and can't be targeted unless they replace Hidden with Revealed (or other currently-irrelevant criteria).
Blasts targeting a point bypass this because points on the battlefield don't have Hidden, only models do.

 

[TopsyKretts]

That settles it! This means the actual distinction is very niche because it only applies to those situations where you can't see any point next to the fighter.

 

[BranBuccarcher]

We played the other day that you could target a point with a template but it automatically scattered unless a hit was rolled on the scatter dice, worked well and avoided any bickering.

 

[Spizz13]

Hey guys 👋🏻 going to ruffle some feathers now potentially.

In light (😉) of last night’s game and doing a bit of research (regardless of most recent FAQ outcome) I think blast templates into pitch black conditions should be mitigated, especially as pitch black condition is so niche/rare anyway and has its own limitations (such as lights coming back on with a 33.3% chance during every end cycle)

Most people I can see have argued that if you can’t see a player under hidden conditions in oder to target them outside of 3”, then you couldn’t see the centre of a blast marker either and therefore shouldn’t be able to target any ground outside of 3” unless you have photo goggs or infra sights and are within their respective ranges, this makes sense to me.

Most people I can see have created house rules to say that projectile blast templates always scatter; D6 at short range and 2xD6 at long range. This seems ok.



My own idea to put forward would have a greater risk of return fire (maybe only for zone mortalis as, the scenery is just jam packed).

I would suggest first rolling a scatter dice, (imagining a line like a half way line on a footy pitch and effectively one goalie is throwing/shooting and the other goalie is the target), any direction facing backward from that line means it returns to sender and then a normal scatter dice and D6 is rolled to determine where it scatters from the throwers’ base and, any arrow facing forwards from that line does the same to the targets’ base, so it’s effectively a 50/50 whether it goes forth or returns but still always scatters.

This idea can be tweaked by having the exact centre between attacker and defender as the starting point for the scatter (instead of the unit bases), with 1xD6 for short range (anything <12”) or, 2xD6 for anything long range ( >12” and up to 24”) ensuring that it has an equal chance of potentially hitting both attacker and target.



Alternatively, and perhaps more simply, you could have; always scatters, 2xD6 unless you roll a hit icon on the scatter dice in which case it’s 1xD3 from the target’s base.



The main aim is that there needs to be a real risk (especially in zone mortalis) of the projectile potentially bouncing back at the attacker. Which essentially would happen if you started throwing grenades in the dark within effectively a scaffolding type structure.



The arguments for the current FAQ rules contain too much grey area for me personally, ie: “you could hear a sound and throw in that direction”, agreed, you could, but who’s to say the target hadn’t deliberately thrown a rock somewhere else in order force you to spend munitions or have made said noise while passing through an area that they no longer occupy. Personally I think that argument is made from/by an attacker’s pov only.



Secondly creatures with eyes use said eyes to calculate depth in order to shoot or throw (unless possibly being blind from birth or born without eyes), the argument that you could see that bridge 12” before the light went off and so still know where it is, is true, but the belief you’d be as competent to hit that target in pitch black is bonkers really.

Eg: If I asked you to hit the a specific number on a dart board you’d prob do it, if I turned the lights out, moved said dartboard a few feet in any direction, then tapped a number on said dart board to simulate a noise being made, and told you to hit that number/spot, you’d realistically struggle to to hit it 1 times out of 100. It probably wouldn’t happen let alone walkways and railings and barrels etc laying within the space between.



With regards to bomb rats I align with the view; that they live in dark places plus, they have superior smell, hearing and taste and so could effectively differentiate one target from another before sending a signal back to the trigger in order for its operative to blow it up so I think they’re own dice rolls are mitigation enough in that respect and should remain as they are 🤷🏻‍♂️



Thoughts? 😂 go easy on me! 🙏🏼

 

[Spizz13]

No. Pitch Black states that all models have the Hidden condition, and can't be targeted unless they replace Hidden with Revealed (or other currently-irrelevant criteria).
Blasts targeting a point bypass this because points on the battlefield don't have Hidden, only models do.

If you can’t see beyond 3” then you can’t target ground beyond 3” realistically. So you need added tisk to the attacker imo, should they be willing to risk, essentially, blind firing/throwing.

 

[lastbrat]

The whole targeting of (template) weapons in the dark is weird. I would say you can target any point in space you like, even with your eyes closed, and shoot. The accuracy of hitting said target is where the pitch black, range, target size and weapon type, mess things up for you. Making hits scatter is a nice mechanic to use for compensating for this loss of accuracy in the darkness for blast weapons. Make every shot fired in the dark scatter or give it a -2 (unmodifiable) to hit modifier (and then scatter when missed) - both seem fair to me.

The reasons for shooting and thus targeting a spot in the first place are obviously because you want to hit enemy fighters, and since the players themselves can actually see exactly where every other fighter is (irregardless of any LOS, cover, etc.), they will cheat, and have their own fighters face or move to strategically advantegeous positions, go into overwatch just when it is conventient to do and abuse the "target any point in space" rule for blast template weapons, using all kinds of excuses like sound, smell, intuition etc. Since there is no way to effectively (and efficiently) get around this abuse of knowledge, and since both sides are free to do it, we have to accept it.

That's why there are rules for targeting the closest enemy, only shooting when you have legitimate targets, checking for cool when charging fighters who caseu fear, etc. But the blast template weapons circumvent/ ignore most of these rules, unfortunately. Let's not only rely on reasoning based on realism (about how and why shooting in the dark would realistically play out), without considering the (contrived) game mechanics which were put in place to counteract that unrealistic amount of knowledge a player has about the other gang, with. Any line of reasoning about the rules governing wepons should be considered with these game mechanics in mind.