Blood Donor, lets talk

Insurgent

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Mar 17, 2016
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@Blood Donor has been dropping some very interesting topics lately.

He has mentioned the low price point of a Necromunda Gang being a nice gateway into the Hobby.
&
He also mentioned the significant translation that NEC and other house rules need to go through ( I imagine this includes general editing also).

I want to fully hear him express his thoughts on these subjects so let's start a discussion.
 
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Insurgent

Gang Champion
Mar 17, 2016
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Blood Donor

Hive Dweller
In Memorium
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Alright consider this a place holder until... I guess either until later tonight or tomorrow. I saw this post this morning and have been thinking about how to address such a thing. I think I have something figured out, gotta decompress from work and feed myself.

Be prepared for a rant... but a good one :p:)
 

Blood Donor

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In Memorium
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Alright, here goes a bit of a rant but don't blame me, blame @Insurgent ;)

In regards to my opinion on Necromunda, GW, and the miniatures hobby, I can honestly say I do not follow the politics or the business of the company close enough to make realistic projections or commentaries on their practices as a whole. Obviously no business in any industry could survive a pivot as drastic as the often spouted "GW should just completely stop doing this and start doing this", but I do honestly believe that the current 40K rules seem to be crafted around a very large collection size. The product has been marketed to inflated force sizes with almost every edition they have released, which really should be sending out huge red flags on sustainability of client base. It is a business direction that supports elitism, akin to the super car market. I maintain that the hobby however supports and promotes a lot more "feel good" attributes that have immense value in the modern society such as creativity, social interaction, mental exercise, and critical discussion. All these play into a healthy lifestyle and help define the formation of an individuals identity within a surrounding community. And so you think the hobby would be far more popular, with more reference and acknowledgement across other pop cultural mediums, and yet the entire thing seems publicly avoided or repressed. Add in that expected buy in price to the hobby and all of a sudden all the benefits get swept away. People complain about teenagers playing too many video games alone in their rooms instead of developing social skills, but look at how the alternatives are presented?

And so for miniatures gaming to grow, accessibility is always the overriding factor. And so on this note, I would address the topic based on the following:
  • Inquisimunda as the best thing GW ever made inspired
  • The importance of Necromunda to the hobby
  • The NCE rules and their successes and short comings
  • The 40K mini rulebook and translating this to Necromunda
  • Creating product future in a global community
Alright so now is the point where people should make that decision of "yeah, this does not interest me in the least", or figure out if they have the 25-30 minutes to read through this, or maybe bookmark it and come back. Because I have coffee and am sitting in a recliner, so this might drag out :p:D



INQUISIMUNDA

There are so many good things about this project, it is really cool to see so much discussion around it on YakTribe. And while things might have stalled out a bit as of late, such things happen with all projects. I think a lot of benefit would come from having the document being in a more sharable format, as it really helps with the pass the torch aspect.

Now, the reason why I think I'munda shines as pinnacle of the 40K universe is that the force size is much more manageable, but it does not pump the brakes in any way of tapping into the full lore of the larger game. With the breadth and diversity of options for factions, it promotes collecting a few different races and warbands, which means a better painting/modelling/hobbying experience as well as having options for getting new players into the game. As the real drive of the hobbying in miniatures gaming should (biased) come from the scratch built terrain side, the skirmish oriented play style also promotes having lots of interesting scenery pieces. Scenery ALWAYS makes a game more visually striking and engaging, and is the saving factor to the price point of any collection, as you can make lots and lots and lots of cheap scenery for your expensive miniatures to battle across.

Game times and required space are incredibly huge aspects that seem neglected in the hobby, but I'munda speaks to strengths in both of these aspects as well. I've only ever attended one gaming convention, which was a lot of fun, but it was more a guy living in rural Alberta inviting friends, friends of friends, and guests, to his farm house where everyone camped for free in the yard, brought fixin's to BBQ, and spend the weekend playing whatever miniatures and board games they wanted. A few big 40K battles, some Dystopian Wars, Malifaux, Warmahordes, it was a good spread of games. But there were like 6 of us that brought Necromunda games, and there was this palpable envy (innocent envy) from everyone else as to how much fun we were having, taking turns every 45 minutes or so to duke it out, and then perform post battle work and socialize in between matches. I think I played like 10 games in a weekend, and some of the 40K guys got their armies out once.

Outside of a weekend gathering setting, the smaller play time goes even further. It allows for more gamers in less space, and in the face melting schedules of the modern rat race it means accommodation where accommodation is an absolute requirement. Bring in table size, and venues are no longer as fickle a matter either. An 8'x4' table is a whopping doozie of a required space, and commands a very large room to support it, the terrain to fill it, and the people to play around it. Gaming needs to be comfortable, it is after all leisure time. So where 4'x4' holds trump, I would even go further to say that if you go into any Canadian Tire or whatever your country's version of the large (soulless?) big box general merchandise retailer, you can fairly easily find 4'x3' folding tables for a reasonable price. This sort of widespread availability should be a legitimate consideration to table size in gaming, as again it goes back to the whole thesis of accessibility. Inquisimunda can be flexed to operate on a table this big, even if you are just knocking a few inches off deployment distance. Heck, even without changes, it tilts some of the favour in play style away from shooting and towards close combat, which is something worth noting on its own :cool:...

So I'munda gives players the full spectrum of 40K, packaged in a size that makes the hobby more approachable. It lets enthusiasts find their style and taste within the miniatures range, at which point they can expand those forces if they want to paint/model/hobby further in that style. These is what leads to a larger collection of a specific faction, and if you want to play games using the full spread of that force, well then heck, there is 40K. In my opinion, Inquisimunda should be the new 40K and 40K should be the new Apocalypse.

So kudos to the lads making headway on the project, hope you are able to keep trudging it out and keep things going (y)(y)



NECROMUNDA - MINIATURES GAMING GREATNESS

So a great deal of praise for I'munda. But one great issue with the game system is that the scope can be overwhelming. Not that it need be whittled or streamlined into something else completely, because the details and nuances are character defining and huge selling points of their own, but it is much more of the Masters degree than the Undergraduate. You have to learn how to drink beer before you get good at chugging it, otherwise you puke all over that girl you were talking to and pass out face down in a pile of your own virginity.

Luckily, you will get laid because Necromunda exists. The game is not as affordable to get into as Gorkamorka, because lets be honest those Ork Boyz kits are the prime example of GW doing it right. But it is pretty approachable nonetheless. Soccer footie and basketball are pretty legendary on the accomplishment factor that anyone can play them relatively easily. But my jump shot is mad weak and I'm only 5'5", so I will use a more Canadian example. To play rec league sports, things like hockey can cost up to $500 per season for a player. Others are cheaper, and at least we aren't talking race car enthusiasts, but still its a very big chunk of change. So compared to these sorts of expenses, playing Necromunda is pretty approachable, not to mention that when compared to playing 40K, when you play Necromunda, with the money left over you could still play Monday night basketball. Move over LeBron.

Necro shares winning factors with I'munda, where you can build a great looking collection of terrain on the cheap and have limitless setup variation to duke it out with your affordable skirmish sized crews on a table that can fit in your apartment during a time that isn't so painfully long that your partner or roommate asks you to stop having your friends over for 6 hour games of toy soldiers. But one of the real draws is the game's scope. The setting is intimate within the vastness of the game universe, but the themes are endless. When I got to speak with Andy Chambers about designing motifs for Necromunda, the game lets any science fiction fan sample traits from damn near any movie/book/video game they might be into, and it will work. So with a game system that is of a digestible size, any fans of the science fiction genre can be viewed as potential players. Necromunda and 40K have some of the best story lines within the genre because they do so much sampling and homage of their inspirations. There is potential to succeed where Futurama and Rick and Morty have with comedy, as long as the "feel good" aspects of it can spotlight the whole thing.

From a miniatures perspective though, Necromunda is built around magnetized minis, and yet accomplishing such a thing remains a very highly skilled aspect of the hobby. The alternatives are to have a very large supply of miniatures with various armaments, which defeats the cost benefits, or neglecting WYSIWYG beyond the general table standard, which eventually just leads to using unpainted salt shakers or thimbles as characters and defeats the creativity benefits. I mean I can see a Stub Gun being a Laspistol being a Bolt Pistol or a Heavy Stubber being a Heavy Bolter being an Autocannon, but that Sword is NOT a Heavy Plasma Gun. It takes away from the visual lure of the whole hobby, the game winning rule of cool factor. The rules could be flexed a bit to make this work, but the models are what really solves this issue. But miniatures in GW's 40K range are not really designed to accommodate this. If Cadian's came with enough close combat arm poses, or Wyches had a few ranged weapon options, the company could market these items as multifaceted. Sell a few "Escher" gangs and you are bound to have a few Dark Eldar army commanders in the making. Plant the seed and then you can smoke the plant. It's good business. This goes back to those Ork Boyz, where a few leg and torso sets from a bits guy and you can stretch that $35 box into 20 boyz.



THE NCE RULES

The Living Rulebook set out on the mission to be the NCE rules. But then funding was diverted from Specialist Games to the flagship products in order to serve stock holders, and the project got scrapped. Seemingly halfway through, for that matter. Not that they, or the ORB rules, should be knocked. The community of players is small enough, and the difference almost boils down to who likes to wear black socks and who likes to wear white socks, and which of those are ankle socks or crew socks. But ultimately, the goal of the LRB was to use playtesting feedback to correct issues stemming from previous incarnations and update them. Thats is exactly what the NCE rules do. Sometimes the corrections are disputed by individuals, but it should generally be understood that a great deal of discussion goes into each change proposal, and a great deal of thought on the topics comes from passionate and intellectual players. Where some changes might seem minute or unnecessary, there is a great deal of validity and logic that goes into them. And the discussion process is open forum, so anyone can get involved. Naturally, there are times when people approach pitches with a decided conviction that does not gel well with the process, so a civil order carries volumes in the manner, but I would say this whole process is another "feel good" aspect of the hobby. I know I have certainly become better at participating in discussion amoung conflicting perspectives, and genuinely think this is a life skill that benefits everyone.

My personal gripe with the rules is their devotion to adhere to the structure of the LRB in terms of page count/numbering/layout, although I am quick to respect the reasoning. I just greatly feel that we are getting closer to having digital rules right at the table during game play for most miniatures games, and layout navigation is now being revolutionized by the likes of clicking hyperlinks to the Movement/Shooting/Combat/Recovery/Etc. sections of the rules, so skills like memorizing page numbers are becoming obsolete. On top of this, I think the page count of the rules set are quite large for tableside play, and also that they are not presented in as user friendly a manner as they could be. My personal preference would be for a layout that closer mimics a walk through of gameplay so that it is much more intuitive and easier to follow for first time players, presented in a shorter length so that it is much easier to navigate in game for various rules referencing. I have made strides of my own to tackle such an approach, but Lord knows in what thread on here that was mentioned... The other thing a diversion from the format requirement would do would be to allow for things that are accepted as legitimate rulings (I'm thinking Leadership Challenges as the prime example but I would personally tap into the possibilities of Event Cards as well) which have not made the document for the sole reason of space. You could have more rules in less pages without dropping font size (presented in a more intuitive manner) if the book made the leap into Necromunda 3rd Edition instead of being the buffed up LRB. Which I mean is what it strives to be, so I can't really knock that.

As for rules wise, my personal take is that right now Shooting versus Combat could be examined a bit closer. Combat is a means of causing serious injury, crippling other gangs, and winning a campaign, where as Shooting gets the pins, maybe the downs, causes the bottle rolls, and wins the match. It always sucks when you lose early in Risk, and then your friends are all still on the table for another hour or so. This reflects bad game design. "Fun with Friends" turns into "Last One Standing", and the sociable aspect of the "feel good" thing gets thwarted. Back to Necro, both aspects - Shooting and Combat - should be competitive in game without being a "force your opponent gang to disband" mechanic. I know gangs disband in campaigns, it is inevitable and adds some awesome lore to the ones who can manage to survive. Because Necromunda is about surviving, not winning. But my personal take is that Combat could be swayed by a couple small details to make it less risky to enter with a trade off of being less lethal overall. I want brawlers that come back from their losses to go on to great things, not gamblers that risk it all with each match being a potential career ender. It is something I have pitched for NCE, but it did not fly in the group. I am comfortable with keeping it as a house rule, because of the "participating in discussions with conflicting perspectives" life lessons I've learned along the way ;)

But if only the rulebook were smaller and organized for easier in game referencing...



THE 40K MINI RULEBOOK

This is one of my favourite things to come out of 40K. You have your big awesome book that is great fun to read through, with all its inspiring pics and cool background stories and you read and reread it just propelling your stoke for the universe further and further... but what was that sub clause about hitting in cover when its dark out and your Initiative value is penalized but there was some other factor involved?

Straight rules. Easier play at the table. There have been some great quick reference sheets made for Necromunda, but something a bit meatier than that for in game play without being the full enchilada. Which brings things to the next point: multiple tomes. I think Necromunda rules should be three books. The tableside rules, with everything from how to make your gang, how to do pre game (choose scenario, roll OBW, yadda yadda), Move/Shoot/Bash/Recover, and Post Battle. Then there should be a Scenario book, which taps into some of the breadth of great fan made scenarios as well, bust most importantly would be a helpful guide to how to organize a campaign. There are a lot of easy GM moves you can inject to a campaign, narrative or not, that help everyone involved and keep things awesome all around, but it would be beneficial for such a thing to be presented for players new to the game completely or new to running a campaign. There had been some efforts to make a YakTribe Scenario Guide on here, and there is some merit to it all. Having a book with all the scenarios, all the normal ones and outlander ones and how to run scenarios with monsters or NPC's or fighting hordes of zombies or rats or bats or slugs or yadda yadda, or how to set a narrative campaign and what to bring in when to keep all players in the campaign and how to prevent runaway power houses (which happen naturally, it is a game of chance after all), ALL these things could be included in one big scenario book you use to pick missions. Necromunda is between an RPG and a wargame, and this would help tap that RPG factor. The third book would be fluff. All that lovable good stuff like what a Lasgun is, who runs Barter Town, how filter plugs used to be feminine hygiene products for the Sisters of Battle before the Emperor had them all genetically manipulated to skip the need. A big book that let the tableside rules focus on rules, without stripping the whole game system of all its amazing fluff. An anthology of all the previous quippets (not talking the Omnibus works of short stories and novels, they are their own beast) and blurbs from rulebooks or WD articles and contributions from the community here, making a tome that illustrates the landscape of the game. It would be cool as shit, and it would be huge in allowing the rule book to be for rules.



NECROMUNDA'S FUTURE IN THE GLOBAL COMMUNITY

The biggest thing to say is that all the hard work that has gone into Necromunda over the last 10+ years has been done by volunteers. A great deal of the work before that even was still done by volunteers, but there was a paid staff to assemble and organize all that work into the LRB and the accompanying WD/Fanatic/Gang War articles.

So it is easy to say what the NCE rules should do, but putting in the work is difficult. Everyone involved has normal jobs and lives they still have requirements to, so by definition all work that goes into Necromunda is based on a "whenever I can get around to it" time frame. I think it would be great to have the NCE available in a couple different languages, but such a feat is absolutely massive in scope. I can't even begin to wrap my head around what would be required of the task. This site, and sites before it, help unify the community of players across the globe so it is hardly an item that is yet under way. I'm always impressed with the linguistic abilities of people who speak English as a second language on here, and genuinely wish they had access to an NCE version in their native tongue.

And along the same terms of expanding the game - and the hobby - to the global community, I think there would be a responsibility in rebranding certain aspects of the nomenclature to reflect the modern social awareness of said global community. Things like "gang warfare" could be "competing factions", although I wouldn't go all too overboard on this, as its still toy soldiers so you can't try and dress it up completely as something it is not. One thing to be said is its far less gory and shameless than most video games. And you get to paint and be creative, and be in the same room as people having fun and discussing a shared interest; all in all you are unplugging from the screen to have more tangible experiences.

And with that said I am going to end this and get off the computer :cool:
 
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Insurgent

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Mar 17, 2016
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The stories people could tell with this game are unlike any in the gaming world. They could become more legendary than the sagas of D&D. But it is up to us to remove the glass ceiling that hovers over this forgotten game. It is a gateway to a galactic fantasy of infinite possibility. And though this game started in the darkest depths of its universe, it is our mission to take it to the stars. Necromunda is a game that has just began to blur the lines of table top simulation and role playing game. One Credit, one Throne Geld, one Tooth, at a time, skirmish gaming needs to build into the full galactic setting. The path from the hive outward is evident. We must take what tools we can and travel light, the day will come when the underhive is just the beginning of our Insurgency.
 

Blood Donor

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A passioned battle cry ;)

For necro, it is the struggle between endless diversity and a manageably digestible size for a game system. I'munda allows Necro to maybe keep more focus as a gateway game, and the I'munda add on opens the flood gates to endless diversity and wonder.
 
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Loriel

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Translating NCE to finnish? :D oh boy that would be some serious shit :D

@Blood Donor Read the thing and have to agree on your arguments! One easiest way to make combat more viable is more terrain! That is the most simplest way. If you have watched my games (I know you have :D ) in my local meta heavies aren't dominating the table, melee fighters are. compared to many battle reports and games I have watched online, it seems that many times better placement of heavies can change the tide of battle. Naturally there are lot of different players who prefer different things, but I personally enjoy more the melee fights than firing squads :D
 

Insurgent

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Blood Donor. Sorry I haven't responded as thoroughly as I would would have liked. My connection has been intermittent lately. The essay you wrote here is one of the best commentaries on tabletop gaming that I have ever read. It has inspired me the put my nose to the grindstone and start developing rules myself. While my internet was down I did just that and I hope I can release some substantive rules in a few days. I really do see the Necromunda/Inquisimunda concept becoming the salvation of the 40K setting. I am determined to get out in front of this before the next re-release of Necromunda occurs and I hope much of the work that you and others have done here will unleash a new chapter in tabletop gaming. The 40K franchise and Games Workshop is a dinosaur. Not just skirmish gaming, but skirmish Role Playing will be its salvation. We as a community have had a long time to learn the lessons of Necromunda. But if I can pick up this game again in 2016 and have the campaign of my life with a couple of noobs, you know Necromunda is something special.

I am going to keep on writing and I will make some more analysis of your essay later. But I think the concepts you have going on are really important work for all table top gaming.

Keep up the good work.
 

bubbleunder99

Ganger
Jun 23, 2016
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Interesting post, these would be my footnotes.

In regards to my opinion on Necromunda, GW, and the miniatures hobby, I can honestly say I do not follow the politics or the business of the company close enough to make realistic projections or commentaries on their practices as a whole. Obviously no business in any industry could survive a pivot as drastic as the often spouted "GW should just completely stop doing this and start doing this", but I do honestly believe that the current 40K rules seem to be crafted around a very large collection size. The product has been marketed to inflated force sizes with almost every edition they have released ...

I'd want to check to make sure of this but it certainly feels right. RT bills itself as a skirmish game and advises players to treat it that way. 2nd ed sorts things out and makes things smoother so you can play bigger battles, but 3rd edition onwards IIRC basically enforces large battles by making the rules more abstract so individual models have less personality/entertainment value (such as no longer having their own M rates per model, rider and jetbike are one model and one in-game entity, again IIRC).

Which leaves us with a system that wants you to play large battles using (relatively) large 28mm figures, which is a bad design idea, because all these guys have to be bought, assembled, painted, stored, and then at least half the time, transported to your opponent's house and back.

This didn't stop me doing (buying) what they told me when I was a kid, of course. Then I went away, then I came back as an 'adult'. Now I'm defo not in the market for collecting a 40k army - if I want to play it (which is about one go per 10 necromunda games) I paint up one or two nice models and then use counters for the troops.

I maintain that the hobby however supports and promotes a lot more "feel good" attributes that have immense value in the modern society such as creativity, social interaction, mental exercise, and critical discussion. All these play into a healthy lifestyle and help define the formation of an individuals identity within a surrounding community.

Ye-e-es ... well, I partly agree. Planning and completing small, achievable projects of whatever kind is generally good for people ('If you can do X, perhaps you can also do Y; if you can do Y, you can do Z ...'). Likewise spending time in communication with someone else, which is what we do when we play the game. Doing number problems helps to stave off dementia. That said, the person I am when I'm doing my day-job is currently banging on the glass saying 'Make the point that for some people, hobbies can become not so healthy, under certain conditions!' but I take it we're all aware of that anyway.

Plus, Necromunda versus current mainstream 40k definitely wins in feel-good terms. You're only ever required to make a few small spends and all the projects you might want to do are optional and achievable. Campaign system, plus small number of models to transport etc, easy entry requirements, etc, all encourages social play.

Re: proposed changes to rulebook format

A stripped down rulebook (i.e. all the rules, no fluff or illustration, hyperlinks for easy navigation, like the 2E40K Battle Bible) would be a good idea, which I would contribute to if I had the skills (HTML or however they make fancy PDFs these days). As to whether it should replace the current book ... hmmm ... because the document will be digital anyways (navigate easily/print off what u want), I'm not sure of the need to separate into three actual different books/files (if this is what you were suggesting)?

I do find that having the bits of background in with the rules does somehow subtly alter the way I read the rules, but that might just be me. Also I've downloaded quite a few bare bones rulesets for various historical eras and never done much with them, I think because you were assumed to know the exciting history anyway so the rules were just rules. Result being I have a single regiment of English Civil War 15mm guys sitting painted on a shelf but several very bloodied and storied Necromunda gangs. That could just be me though, plus I had a pre-existing 40k tentacle stuck in my brain.
 

Insurgent

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Mar 17, 2016
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well I played my first game of Kill Team today and it wasn't very fun. I still have to look into the post battle sequence and the campaign rules but action sequences seemed contrived and repetitive. At time it felt like I was rolling dice to just roll dice and there wasn't a lot of thinking or basic tactics.
 
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bubbleunder99

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well I played my first game of Kill Team today and it wasn't very fun. I still have to look into the post battle sequence and the campaign rules but action sequences seemed contrived and repetitive. At time it felt like I was rolling dice to just roll dice and there wasn't a lot of thinking or basic tactics.

How different is KT to regular 40k?
 

Insurgent

Gang Champion
Mar 17, 2016
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I think we can forget how accurate pinning can be to simulating ranged combat. I know hand to hand can be convoluted in Necromunda but assaulting in 40k is outright fairy dust action movie bullshit. Everything is so broken in 40K that we are well beyond the point of using thousands of dollars in miniatures as wound counters. The game is so contrived and has so little to do with landscape and scale that you might as well use colored beads to represent your armies.
 
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Insurgent

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How different is KT to regular 40k?
The models have autonomy but that is about it. It makes only modest attempts to accommodate terrain or cover. Armor is king and the wound chart is like something out of HALO. Your dudes progressively get better every turn until they are up and ready for action again unless they are taken out of action immediately.

I will be playing a few more games and making a force. But for now I am not impressed.

Been waiting for a Genestealer Cult Army for 20 year and I went into the game store today and the Codex was wrapped in plastic. Good call GW, I almost bought a Chaos Marine book so I could play cultists until 15 seconds or reading made me realize how profoundly uncreative GW can be with their troop profiles. It is like they write to eliminate diversity in a galaxy wide setting.
 
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Blood Donor

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...Planning and completing small, achievable projects of whatever kind is generally good for people ('If you can do X, perhaps you can also do Y; if you can do Y, you can do Z ...'). Likewise spending time in communication with someone else, which is what we do when we play the game. Doing number problems helps to stave off dementia. That said, the person I am when I'm doing my day-job is currently banging on the glass saying 'Make the point that for some people, hobbies can become not so healthy, under certain conditions!' but I take it we're all aware of that anyway...

Agree very much on this point. One of my loves for Necromunda is the mentioned structure to the scope and the total miniature count that the game is modeled around. It is a double edged sword of creative content, where vast depth and detail given to a storyline are not always a good thing. A Youtube channel I really find interesting, Nerdwriter1, has this really interesting video on World Building:


Now where I think this ties in to Necromunda being a much healthier game system, the above mentioned perils of the unhealthy side of the hobby that @bubbleunder99 hit on can include when players/participants/fans skew time management into becoming too involved with following the canon. If you need to have such an array of miniatures that you are forced to spend all of our day in a job you hate to afford them, and that you don't have money beyond this addiction to support a more balanced social life, it becomes problematic. If you need to follow every fiction piece, every storyline tie in that you are choosing this more solitary activity instead of more social options more often than not, it becomes problematic. Since 40K is a product and GW is a business, their success is directly tied into pumping out product. So its never ending. Not getting wrapped up in that never ending loop and ensuring you still get to go outside, look at the sky, touch a tree, yadda yadda. Point is that yeah, too much detail can be unhealthy for some people.

...I'm not sure of the need to separate into three actual different books/files (if this is what you were suggesting)?...

I think what I was trying to say is that if you had one rulebook that had the lore stripped out of it for barebones sake, that the other could be jam packed with it. Several FAQ style examples of how each game mechanism work. Loads of backstory on each weapon or piece of equipment. Gang histories, I would go as far as to include famous gangs from well recorded campaigns such as the in office lunch campaigns during the games inception at GW, the heroes on the board in LAGGNOG games, from anywhere really. It could all be brought in with amazing artwork to be that big shiny book you crack open again and again and look over the coolness. The thing could be so big that you could bludgeon a fucking priest to death with it without ever leaving a bruise. It would be a rulebook taken in each direction, one stripped down and the other expanded.


The Kill Team remarks from both of you, @Insurgent and @bubbleunder99, reflect mature comprehensive approaches to a tabletop game: what they are going for is understood, where changes need be made are outlined. The shrink wrapped codices kind of spells out the disconnect. Eventually, they will run out of people willing to chance their products if they do not maintain a more dedicated involvement with the scene. Those they did have will either commit to the offerings of other companies, or move towards communities refining no longer supported products that showcased much more well thoughout mechanics.

Because at this rate, one is left to assume they are looking to rely on copyright law infringement cases to pay their share holders rather than investing in a product with legitimate legs under it...
 
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bubbleunder99

Ganger
Jun 23, 2016
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That shrink-wrapped codex thing is particularly bad. I can see exactly what they're doing there ... rules knowledge stays with the GW store staff, if you want to try playing an army, you'll have to buy the book.
 

Insurgent

Gang Champion
Mar 17, 2016
483
505
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Springfield OR
You know I think the Sci-fi gaming community needs to lay out a timeline and develop a new galaxy wide setting. The whole sci-fi idea behind 40K is that you have Terra and you have a "date" ie 40,000. They can even get away with this setting looking dated and frankly being conceived before the internet was born because the setting is in the middle of a 10,000 year dark age. It is a cool concept and workable because of that "dark age" but they fail so dramatically in expressing the extreme diversity that would come from a setting like that.

The single biggest way that they can express diversity and give creative power to the players is through troop profiles. The more weapons and equipment options you provide troop types, the more ability you give players to develop their own narrative while building a force. This is a Sci-Fi setting, so the primary way you are going to express the future is through the various technology. Necromunda is absolutely beautiful for this. But so much of 40K is one standard troop type with little variation. Remember the old 2nd Ed Eldar codex? You could spend weeks thinking through all the variations on just the Guardian profile. And if you wanted to get zany you could even use a Corsair profile that they provided. This freedom of options allows the setting to propel itself.

But after all the years of difficulty with the lack of variation in the miniature collection and a lack of surplus bits to kit bash with, they have finally solved the problem. Although GW kits are depressingly expensive (to the point that I will never by new) they now provide a wealth of bits and extras. The only problem is that their writing in the troop profiles hasn't caught up with this. The basic core troop profiles are still dry and uncreative. The focus remains on expensive specialty troops and the thought involved in building a thematically cool force is replaced with elite troop types designed to fill specialized rolls. If I want to play an army of nothing but Eldar Guardians and Jetbikes you should be able to equip them in a way that they will be an effective fighting force. That simply can't happen now days and it pigeon holes players into a one size fits all Army profile or one of the new formations that eliminate the thinking process entirely for players.

I didn't get a chance to look that closely at a pirated Genestealer codex but I don't think they have a brood brother troop type. It's just all hybrids. So much for all the painfully collected Genestealer armies built over the years by Necromunda players. Way to shit on your base again.
 

Blood Donor

Hive Dweller
In Memorium
Tribe Council
Aug 23, 2011
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yaktribe.games
The trouble with suggesting a complete rewrite of setting lore is that it is a huge endeavour. The easiest way to convince a community to take on such a tasknis money incentive. This is literally what every other sci fi game within the industry is doing: carving out a market from where they see short comings of their competitors' products.

Its easy to get wrapped up in blasting GW of failures, there are countless posts on as many forums about it. But if every fan created their own spinoff fluff, gaming within a specific setting lore would be all but impossible. The setup in Necro is beautiful to me for this reason because it sets the table, and then gaming groups can bring their own meals to it. It is the simplicity that keeps it functional. Require too much of a player base to know all these background points, and it becomes less attractive. If Marvel released a new movie fully dependant on plot points from other films in the shared universe to drive its story arcs, it requires viewers to dedicate a great deal of hours into following along. I just think it is a design flaw to have so much detail be required knowledge for participation. Sports with too many rules are less attractive in this same way.

For the initial post i had made outlining a few key elements of the hobby, what I was mostly trying to push for was that specific winning elements of the game systems need be focused on and ran with - developed further - than time spent spinning wheels on griping or expanding all potential tangent setting possibilities. It just comes down to niche within a niche within a growing line of niche. Too specific and it loses accessibility perks. We aren't here to change what GW is doing with their business as much as many of us (myself often included) would like, we are here to keep this one aspect of the hobby vibrant and relative because of blatent perks it has.

Writing this from a phone, so I can only see my previous six lines. This post is probably more garbage than not...
 

Strobe

Ganger
Apr 27, 2015
104
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Blood Donor, your post struck a chord with me. I've convinced some of my gaming group who mostly play Warmachine and Hordes to try out some Necromunda which I haven't played since the late 90s. What you describe as (some of) the issues 40k has had over the years made me realise that it is sadly common across many games and companies.

I'm mostly referring to the push towards larger games which raises a stern barrier to entry in financial cost, modelling time and also rules weight. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Warmachine and Hordes but one of the biggest flaws with the game system is the huge amount of learning to really play the game even in a fairly casual way. It is a little sad that I swapped over from 40k as my primary wargame to Warmachine and Hordes and now it is heading in the same direction with a push towards larger battles. It was originally described to me as a skirmish game but I have fielded armies of 70+ models.

Necromunda has, in my opinion, the correct amount of rules to make the game portion interesting without undue constraint to the creative aspect of making your gang (force, squad, army, whatever) your own in story and look. The combined RPG/wargame aspect I guess is one of my favourite parts of Necromunda.

I can only say I'm very interested in what you describe with a digital rulebook as a more modern format. I've got a little experience with ePUB and HTML editing and regular publication page layout. If you're looking for some help in this area down the track shoot me a PM or something.

You've also inspired me to go and have a stronger look at Inquisimunda...