N18 Bolt pistol rebalance

[sweenmachine]

The bolt pistol sucks for five cr more you can get a plasma pistol and it's better in pretty much every way I'm trying to think of ways that it can be made better options I've come up with so far are give it rapid fire 1 or cut the cost significantly



Any arbitraters want to weigh in on what they think is best?

 

[katfezza]

My group dropped the cost to 35cr, didn't change anything else. It has been seeing regular use since then.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

You get what you pay for. Or in the bolt pistols case you also get what you don't pay for.
Fail a ammo roll with a plasma pistol and it can't be reloaded. A bolt pistols can. (Ammo jacks and Mutioneer helps)
Also there is no chance of melting your own face with a bolt pistol.

The bolt pistol also has a option that plasma pistols don't. Special ammo types. The two Core ones are Limited but that can be mitigated to Scarce if you get a Bullet Merchant which works on all gang members so can give a lot more milage to your rank and file autoguns and shotguns etc as well.
The Shatter shell gives you a decent ranged grenade that can actually benefit from Aiming and Sights etc.
The Gas shell gives a gas grenade with the ability to Aim and use sights.
Both are far cheaper than the thrown variety and with the Bullet merchant you at least don't need to buy again. It lets non Esher and Nomads use Gas which opponents may be unprepared for.

The best special ammo for bolt pistols however is actually great. Gunk Rounds. They are only 15 credits so 10 points more than a plasma pistol. They hit just as hard as a normal bolt round, which is still pretty good. They can slow that nasty combat monster right down so it can't charge as far keeping your lads and lasses safer.
And it's 12 range means it needs to be fired relatively close to the enemy.
You know just a brief stroll at max range to let that buddy with a flamer saunter up and now set the victim on fire. In a 2+.
Also Gunk bolts on pistols are not Scarce so no Bullet merchant or re buying required.
If you are ash wasting it, or otherwise put the victim in a Initiative dependant fall position, them the Initiative penalty is pretty neat as well. Suddenly your Esher biker take takes the I get knocked down test like a normal person. A Gunked Van Saar or Squat basically falls of their bike all the time. Or off a four story drop suffering an additional hit that can be even better than a plasma pistol shot.
Gunk also triggers on a hit irrespective of any actual wounds or saves so it's wackyness always applies.

The plasma pistol is good for killing bosses.
The Gunk Bolt pistol (and other ammo if you want) is good for teamwork.

 

[Beebopalulla]

Why do you need a bolt pistol or a plasma pistol? what is your gang? As a squat player, i have option vastly differents than their archnemy. So to answer is the bolt pistol sucks it would help if you mean in general or for a specific gang.

 

[daveh]

Cawdor weeps for your problems , please donate your unwanted bolt weapons to your nearest reverant.

 

[Beebopalulla]

Cawdor weeps for your problems , please donate your unwanted bolt weapons to your nearest reverant.

at 1:33 the hive noble have a gun showcase if you are interested.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Why do you need a bolt pistol or a plasma pistol? what is your gang? As a squat player, i have option vastly differents than their archnemy. So to answer is the bolt pistol sucks it would help if you mean in general or for a specific gang.

Think is was a general question between the Bolt and Plasma pistols.
Apart from Ironhead Squat pistoleers the bolt pistol and plasma pistol are the only two sidearms every other gang can get in the same price bracket and roughly same role.

 

[Beebopalulla]

Well, in this case bolt pistol unless it's specify has access to some variety of ammunition which make them more versatile than plasma pistol. The choice is then between raw destructive power and adaptability.

Therefore, I prefer the bolt pistol.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Well, in this case bolt pistol unless it's specify has access to some variety of ammunition which make them more versatile than plasma pistol. The choice is then between raw destructive power and adaptability.

Therefore, I prefer the bolt pistol.

Don't forget the possibility of reloading the bolt pistol.

And the impossibility of melting your own face off with it.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

@Beebopalulla
There is also the modeling side.
A bolt pistol is just a bulky pistol
A plasma pistol gets you thinking "hmm I could paint a glow effect.... Then why not try an objective source lighting effect".
Then a hour into painting it you remember what a pain it was the last time to get it right.
"Oh well I started now I am damn well going to get it to work"

Meh dinner is for quitters.

 

[Beebopalulla]

Meh dinner is for quitters.

???

the bulky aspect can be mitigate with older model or third parties miniatures or 3d printing.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

@Beebopalulla
Oh just remarking how much easier the bolt pistol is to paint at whatever size.
Then just had a flashback of when I got fixated on doing cool plasma things on my Van Saar for way too long.

 

[Beebopalulla]

@Beebopalulla
Oh just remarking how much easier the bolt pistol is to paint at whatever size.
Then just had a flashback of when I got fixated on doing cool plasma things on my Van Saar for way too long.

fair points.

 

[KA7777]

My group dropped the cost to 35cr, didn't change anything else. It has been seeing regular use since then.

Yeah, it's actually a fine weapon, the price is the only debatable thing about it.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Yeah, it's actually a fine weapon, the price is the only debatable thing about it.

I'm fine with the price.
Comparing it's price with the plasma pistol is not a good comparison.
The plasma pistol has a number of drawbacks that have artificially lowered its price.
Scarce is a bit of a large Drawback especially with it's poor ammo value. This drops the price.
Unstable is a real killer.
If the plasma pistol did not have these, like the bolt pistol enjoys, it would cost much more, say 90 credits or more.

The Commissioners Little Friend is far more akin to the auto pistol or the Stubgun than the plasma pistol for comparisons

 

[quindraco]

I'm fine with the price.
Comparing it's price with the plasma pistol is not a good comparison.
The plasma pistol has a number of drawbacks that have artificially lowered its price.
Scarce is a bit of a large Drawback especially with it's poor ammo value. This drops the price.
Unstable is a real killer.
If the plasma pistol did not have these, like the bolt pistol enjoys, it would cost much more, say 90 credits or more.

The Commissioners Little Friend is far more akin to the auto pistol or the Stubgun than the plasma pistol for comparisons

Unstable is optional and rarely used. These are the two profiles we're really comparing.

Bolt	6"	12"	+1	-	4	-1	2	6+	Sidearm	R8	45
Plasma	6"	12"	+2	-	5	-1	2	5+	Scarce, Sidearm	R9	50

This means:
A bolt pistol is at -1 accuracy, -1S out to 6", then -1S out to 12".
A bolt pistol runs out of ammunition 5/36 (13.89%) of the time, then every reload action has a 1/6 (16.67%) chance to reload it.
A plasma pistol runs out of ammunition 4/36 (1/9, 11.11%) of the time, then can't be reloaded at all.

Since it will take about 4 reload actions to have a better than even chance of having reloaded the bolt pistol, you might as well treat it as scarce - you don't have the action economy to afford to reload it anyway. The plasma pistol will take longer to run dry and hits more accurately and harder. Always take the plasma pistol.

 

[Beebopalulla]

Unstable is optional and rarely used. These are the two profiles we're really comparing.

Bolt

6"

12"

+1

-

4

-1

2

6+

Sidearm

R8

45

Plasma

6"

12"

+2

-

5

-1

2

5+

Scarce, Sidearm

R9

50

This means:
A bolt pistol is at -1 accuracy, -1S out to 6", then -1S out to 12".
A bolt pistol runs out of ammunition 5/36 (13.89%) of the time, then every reload action has a 1/6 (16.67%) chance to reload it.
A plasma pistol runs out of ammunition 4/36 (1/9, 11.11%) of the time, then can't be reloaded at all.

Since it will take about 4 reload actions to have a better than even chance of having reloaded the bolt pistol, you might as well treat it as scarce - you don't have the action economy to afford to reload it anyway. The plasma pistol will take longer to run dry and hits more accurately and harder. Always take the plasma pistol.

Fair points but again it's not what I look in pistols.

 

[quindraco]

To answer OP's question, if you want to leave the gun's cost alone and improve it to be competitive, try giving it 5+ ammo and add 4" to its short and long ranges. Now it's meaningfully easier to sustain fire with it than with a plasma pistol and it's able to reach out and touch people at shotgun range.

 

[HugeSamples]

Fair points but again it's not what I look in pistols.

My curiosity has been piqued, what do you find to be desirable in a pistol?

I tend to fall into the camp of the Bolt Pistol is struggling to find a place in the game when the Plasma Pistol exists.

A normal Bolter has a lot of value when compared to the Plasma Gun.

I'd say either the Plasma Pistol is under costed, the Bolt Pistol is over costed, or the current cost for either doesn't make any sense. The Bolt Pistol isn't bad by any means--S4, AP-1, D2 is very good.

The Bolt Pistol has a 13.89% chance to run out of ammo--[(1/6)(5/6)] an ammo check is required and the ammo check is failed--and a 30.56% of reloading using both actions--[(1/6)+((5/6)(1/6))] the first check passes or the first check fails and the second check passes (or 1 - the chance both reload rolls fail [1-((5/6)(5/6))]). In which case you can expect to spend at least 3 activations (really 3.27--1/(11/36)--activations) trying.

While the Plasma Pistol has a 11.11% [(1/6)(2/3)] chance to run out of ammo and a 0% chance to reload.

When I do the math the Bolt Pistol isn't "that bad", but I still think the Plasma Pistol is a better value.

 

[Beebopalulla]

My main concern when it comes to choose between two weapon is versatility. It's more important for me than cost. So when you have a weapon that can do several things it has my favor. The first two are damage related but the third one is more tactical and can be devastation against any one with M4 and or bad Initiative.

This is what i like considering that you have a limited amount of weapons you can carry.

Bolt pistol 6" 12" +1 - 4 -1 2 6+ Sidearm R8 45
- gas shells 6" 12" +1 - - - - 6+ Blast (3"), Gas, Limited, Single Shot
R11 +25
- shatter shells 6" 12" +1 - 3 -1 1 6+ Blast (3"), Limited R9 +15

BOLTWEAPON AMMUNITION
The following types of ammunition can be purchased for use in any boltgun, bolt pistol, heavy bolter, or any combi-weapon that includes a boltweapon component.
Item Price Rarity
Gunk bolts 15 credits Common

GUNK
A fighter hit by a weapon with the Gunk Trait becomes subject to the Gunked condition. Gunked fighters reduce their Movement characteristic by 1 to a minimum of 1 and don’t add D3" to their movement when making a Charge action. In addition, they subtract 1 from the dice roll when making an Initiative check. Gunked fighters are also more flammable and catch fire on a 2+, rather than a 4+, when hit by a weapon with the Blaze trait.

The Gunked condition lasts until the End phase or until the fighter catches fire after being hit by a weapon with the Blaze Trait.