N18 Bolt pistol rebalance

[Vonvilkee]

My curiosity has been piqued, what do you find to be desirable in a pistol?

I tend to fall into the camp of the Bolt Pistol is struggling to find a place in the game when the Plasma Pistol exists.

A normal Bolter has a lot of value when compared to the Plasma Gun.

I'd say either the Plasma Pistol is under costed, the Bolt Pistol is over costed, or the current cost for either doesn't make any sense. The Bolt Pistol isn't bad by any means--S4, AP-1, D2 is very good.

The Bolt Pistol has a 13.89% chance to run out of ammo--[(1/6)(5/6)] an ammo check is required and the ammo check is failed--and a 30.56% of reloading using both actions--[(1/6)+((5/6)(1/6))] the first check passes or the first check fails and the second check passes (or 1 - the chance both reload rolls fail [1-((5/6)(5/6))]). In which case you can expect to spend at least 3 activations (really 3.27--1/(11/36)--activations) trying.

While the Plasma Pistol has a 11.11% [(1/6)(2/3)] chance to run out of ammo and a 0% chance to reload.

When I do the math the Bolt Pistol isn't "that bad", but I still think the Plasma Pistol is a better value.

The bigger problem with pistols is the range you are at when/ if it goes out of ammo. "Rifle" range you can spend those actions to reload as you are unlikely to be in movement range of anything more worthwhile. Pistols on the other hand tend to be carried by movers who won't want to spend so many actions reloading a secondary job piece of equipment.

 

[HugeSamples]

I hadn't considered the secondary ammos.

Gunk rounds do sound good (if you're allowing ammo from outside the Core Rulebook).
Gas rounds are expensive being limited and single shot, but their value goes up if you're Escher or if you have a Bullet Merchant. Bear in mind these do not pin.
Shatter rounds are kind of meh, but have their use (I'd rather have a Grenade Launcher model fill this role).

If we're factoring in the ammunitions then the Bolt Pistol is pretty decent.

 

[quindraco]

Bear in mind you don't have access to gunk bolts unless you have access to the Badzones Trading Post, which your Arbitrator may or may not allow. Without an Arbitrator, i.e. in a friendly skirmish gang, you need your opponent's consent to buy them.

The other two shells are hot garbage. Let's put them in perspective. I have to present the cost of the underlying bolt pistol in some way, so please don't get too upset at the inherent bias of the syntax I choose. I'm going to modify some values here to change them from falsehoods to truth, like the ammo check on gas shells, which is "this weapon automatically runs out of ammo and can't be reloaded even if you have an ammo cache and a bullet merchant".

Bolt pistol	6"	12"	+1	-	4	-1	2	6+	Sidearm	R8	45
- gas shells	6"	12"	+1	-	*	*	*	*	Blast (3"), Gas, Limited, Single Shot	R11	+25
- shatter shells	6"	12"	+1	-	3	-1	1	6+	Blast (3"), Limited	R9	+15
Incendiary charge	-	Sx3	-	-	3	-	1	5+	Blast (5"), Blaze, Grenade	R7	40
Photon flash grenade	-	Sx3	-	-	-	-	-	5+	Blast (5"), Flash, Grenade	R9	15
Grav pistol	6"	12"	+1	-	*	*	2	5+	Blast (3"), Concussion, Graviton Pulse	R11	70

It's absolute lunacy to purchase a bolt pistol and gas shells. A grav pistol is the same cost, the same rarity, and radically better performance for your credits. For shatter shells, we have to examine the simple utility of sensible grenade choices to pair with your plasma (or grav) pistol.

 

[Beebopalulla]

It's absolute lunacy to purchase a bolt pistol and gas shells.

I don't know if it's lunacy. But I don't look at only the cost/efficiency ratio.

I am looking for something that cover a lot of situation without the need to change tool everytime.

I respect your opinion about the cost/ efficiency ratio. We are not looking at the same thing.

 

[quindraco]

I don't know if it's lunacy. But I don't look at only the cost/efficiency ratio.

I am looking for something that cover a lot of situation without the need to change tool everytime.

I respect your opinion about the cost/ efficiency ratio. We are not looking at the same thing.

In what possible context are you preferring a bolt pistol with gas shells to a grav pistol?
Alternatively, in what possible context are you preferring a bolt pistol with gas and shatter shells to a grav pistol and photon flash grenades?

 

[Beebopalulla]

Alright, this is not about who is right or who is wrong. I thought i was clear when i talked about versatility, adaptability. It's not about a specific situation. it's about adapting to what may come. The bolt pistol allow to stay within the limit of number of weapons.

 

[quindraco]

Alright, this is not about who is right or who is wrong. I thought i was clear when i talked about versatility, adaptability. It's not about a specific situation. it's about adapting to what may come. The bolt pistol allow to stay within the limit of number of weapons.

Grenades don't count against weapon limits. You'll be far more versatile and adaptable if you invest in good grenades than if you try to make a bolt pistol do work with its custom ammo.

Note: gunk grenades are one of two (the other is vortex) absolutely reliant on an arbitrator to fix to make the thing compliant with the game rules. The two plausible fixes are changing its S to - or its D to 1, and of course which one is chosen has a radical impact on gameplay. I don't know which fix is more popular.

 

[-Rud-]

I think everyone is focused on the wrong aspect of the limitations of the bolt pistol. The damage, plus accuracy, ammo are all reasonable and in line with compatible other comparable gear.

What is missing is a rapid fire (1) dice.

With that, it gives the bolt pistol a practice use. It makes it an upgrade to the autopistol for those who like rapid fire and is the optimal melee sidearm with a punch.

It makes it consistent with autogun vs autopistol, last pistol vs lasgun, and plasma pistol vs plasma gun.

You'd still pick plasma or the others depending on what you need, but it would have it's place.

 

[Beebopalulla]

No, not wrong aspect but different ones. .

Plus it applies to most bolt pistols, not the squat one.

 

[quindraco]

I think everyone is focused on the wrong aspect of the limitations of the bolt pistol. The damage, plus accuracy, ammo are all reasonable and in line with compatible other comparable gear.

What is missing is a rapid fire (1) dice.

With that, it gives the bolt pistol a practice use. It makes it an upgrade to the autopistol for those who like rapid fire and is the optimal melee sidearm with a punch.

It makes it consistent with autogun vs autopistol, last pistol vs lasgun, and plasma pistol vs plasma gun.

You'd still pick plasma or the others depending on what you need, but it would have it's place.

You just described Ironhead Bolt Pistols, and no sane squat ever picks up a plasma pistol.

 

[Beebopalulla]

Well squat need to go to the trading post to get a plasma pistol unless I missed a entry in HOA.

So for them why would you need a plasma pistol is a good question.

 

[ntw3001]

Plasma pistol isn't even the worst comparison. A plasma-stub gets the extremely minor downsides of combi (a 1/18 higher chance of running out of ammo) and scarce – which is flavour text. Nobody has ever spent an action attempting to reload a bolt pistol. And in exchange it gets... +1S, +1 at short range, and a sidearm built -in. And all that comes at the additional cost of... -5c. It is cheaper than the bolt pistol. It's also the same rarity, so there's no scenario where you only have 45c or rolled an 8 for trade and need a modestly-powerful pistol right now.

As for fixes, I think they can just be cheaper. There's a big space for mid-priced pistols. 30c is probably fine. Hell, 25 wouldn't hurt. A decent price for the main firearm of a ganger who's also shelling out for a melee weapon.

 

[quindraco]

Plasma pistol isn't even the worst comparison. A plasma-stub gets the extremely minor downsides of combi (a 1/18 higher chance of running out of ammo) and scarce – which is flavour text. Nobody has ever spent an action attempting to reload a bolt pistol. And in exchange it gets... +1S, +1 at short range, and a sidearm built -in. And all that comes at the additional cost of... -5c. It is cheaper than the bolt pistol. It's also the same rarity, so there's no scenario where you only have 45c or rolled an 8 for trade and need a modestly-powerful pistol right now.

As for fixes, I think they can just be cheaper. There's a big space for mid-priced pistols. 30c is probably fine. Hell, 25 wouldn't hurt. A decent price for the main firearm of a ganger who's also shelling out for a melee weapon.

For comparison, a plasma pistol will get about 9 shots. A combi one will get about 6.75 shots, which is 75% as many. A bolt pistol gets about 7.2 shots. But yes, stub combi-plasmas are good pistols; 80% the cost for 75% the shots and then you have a fallback stub gun but worse.

 

[quindraco]

For ease of comparison, provided you're RF1 or RF0 and don't have Grenade or Single Shot, expected shots:

Check	Combi?	Expected Shots
6+	Y	6.17
5+	Y	6.75
6+	N	7.2
4+	Y	8
5+	N	9
3+	Y	10.8
4+	N	12
3+	N	18
2+	Y	19.64
2+	N	36

 

[ntw3001]

I don't think there are many games where a plasma pistol fires 6 times, let alone 9. And the plasma-stub has its backup weapon built in. And it's cheaper! 10c discount to trade high power for a stub gun. Maybe you do want to pay the premium for high power; I don't think the comparison between the plasma pistol and plasma-stub is so clear. But plasma-stub against bolt pistol, no contest.

 

[Beebopalulla]

May I introduce you to the combi bolt pistol/ plasma pistol for a low price of 80 credit.

 

[daveh]

May I introduce you to the combi bolt pistol/ plasma pistol for a low price of 80 credit.

may i introduce you to the cawdor combi worn out pistol/rag

 

[Beebopalulla]

may i introduce you to the cawdor combi worn out pistol/rag

Oh please stick on the topic as i m already shivering with anticipation at looking at your sugestion.

 

[TopsyKretts]

In what possible context are you preferring a bolt pistol with gas shells to a grav pistol?
Alternatively, in what possible context are you preferring a bolt pistol with gas and shatter shells to a grav pistol and photon flash grenades?

Comparing Graviton Pulse to Gas: High Strength low Toughness targets. Don't think there are many such targets

 

[Grimfang]

Well, iirc I can´t even buy a bolt pistol in my House list.. I wish I could (Escher). Sure, i can buy it later.. Or a combi-one. I prefer bolt weapons over plasma as.. Probably because theya re spammed.. But i made a conversion - my Queen, iwht one and i run with it..
Had Ihad the bolt pistol option i would have picked that one, they feel more cool..

No heavy arguments but..