N18 Book of Judgement discsussion

TopsyKretts

Hive Guilder
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Interesting to see the similarities and differences between Guild Alliances and criminal alliances. All alliances share the "Band A Part" special rule.

All guilders have some identical rules not shared with Recidivists:

GUILD BENEFITS
AID
Each Alliance will specify a Success Level number. In the pre-battle sequence, the gang may attempt to add Alliance Representatives to the battle.
Aid roll: D6 + Reputation
  • Equal to or less than the Success Level:
    Successful, the allies deigns to aid their allies on the battlefield.
  • Greater than the Success Level:
    Failed, the allies decide that the gang can cope alone.
GUILD DRAWBACKS
All Guild Alliances have the following drawback:
GUARD DUTY
If the gang has the option to choose the scenario, the gang must Test the Alliance to do so. Or roll a D6.
  • 1-3: Defend in Looters, Smash and Grab, Caravan Heist or Escort Mission.
  • 4-6: Choose freely.
If defending in Looters, Smash and Grab, Caravan Heist or Escort Mission, the allies must be included. Roll for Aid (as described). If failed, the gang is unhappy about this forced interference and must Test the Alliance.
REPRESENTATIVES
Most Guild Alliance details consist of 3 or 4 Hired Guns:
  • 1 Leader (Guild Procurator)
  • 1 Champion (Guild Factotum)
  • 1-2 Gangers (Bodyguards)
Compare this to Recidivists. No shared Benefits or Drawbacks. No shared (additional) titles. No shared scenarios they show up to. Some don't even specify scenarios. Different amount of fighters: 1, 4, 5. No roll to aid. Those who include Bodyguards do however share the bodyguard special rules (Bodyguard, Indentured fighters).

 

Baffo

Gang Champion
Aug 2, 2018
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Agreed, Recidivists are more varied in flavor and specific rules, which makes some sense from a 'lore point of view' (the guilds more uniformly treat with allied gangs, while criminals each have their own quirks).
That said, you can get around the 'roll to see if guild allies deem to help you in battle' by controlling one of the 5 Guild bond rackets (interestingly there isn't one for the Iron guild). Should be interesting to see what Rackets gangs tend to aim for on their first and second challenge
For my Enforcers the first Racket they'll try to take control of is the Water guild bond, so I can field the syphoning delegation and a generic free bounty hunter for a possible +4 on Capture roll + the option to instantly sell captive to guilders, which fits Enforcers very well from a storytelling perspective (and actually makes them extra scary to face in battle even in late campaign).
 
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Jacob Dryearth

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Sep 6, 2016
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I was about to make that point about Scouring, thanks, you took the words right out of my mouth! I'll take -1 str. for half the actions any day!
 

Merzbau

Gang Champion
Nov 9, 2018
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It seems like that is one of the benefits of being an Outlaw. Also Guild Bond Rackets allow you to ignore the test to see if they join a battle as well, and they are available to both Law Abiding and Outlaw gangs.

I'm tempted to house rule that Law Abiding gangs to form Criminal Alliances as well, but they add 1d6 to the alignment shift roll after each game, or 2d6 if they used the free fighters. The text supports these type of alliances, not to mention the Imperial Impostor's abilities.
You might want to double-check this- Outlaw gangs only get Bounty Hunters and Hive Scum out of the Guild Bond rackets, as Guild alliances are restricted to law-abiding gangs in Crime & Misrule.

I'm going to have to do an audit of the criminal syndicates vs Guild alliances to see if the comparative ease of getting aid from criminal syndicates needs fixing, but again, law-abiding guilds can circumvent this by controlling a Guild Bond (probably the intent behind not requiring criminal syndicates to test), which also seems like it might allow them to switch alliances mid-campaign phase.
 

Merzbau

Gang Champion
Nov 9, 2018
269
358
68
Philadelphia
Agreed, Recidivists are more varied in flavor and specific rules, which makes some sense from a 'lore point of view' (the guilds more uniformly treat with allied gangs, while criminals each have their own quirks).
That said, you can get around the 'roll to see if guild allies deem to help you in battle' by controlling one of the 5 Guild bond rackets (interestingly there isn't one for the Iron guild). Should be interesting to see what Rackets gangs tend to aim for on their first and second challenge
For my Enforcers the first Racket they'll try to take control of is the Water guild bond, so I can field the syphoning delegation and a generic free bounty hunter for a possible +4 on Capture roll + the option to instantly sell captive to guilders, which fits Enforcers very well from a storytelling perspective (and actually makes them extra scary to face in battle even in late campaign).
The lack of a bond for the Iron Guild might be in part because they don't have a delegation (they just send Hive Scum) and because their benefits are solely $AVING$! HOT BARGAINZ 4 GUN! which, in the already higher-income Crime & Misrule campaign, could quickly get out of hand even if they didn't have an easily exploitable loophole. My group is leaning toward banning the Iron Guild outright since it would take too much work to fix them and even then, they would be far less interesting than the other Guilds.
 
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Baffo

Gang Champion
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The lack of a bond for the Iron Guild might be in part because they don't have a delegation (they just send Hive Scum) and because their benefits are solely $AVING$! HOT BARGAINZ 4 GUN! which, in the already higher-income Crime & Misrule campaign, could quickly get out of hand even if they didn't have an easily exploitable loophole. My group is leaning toward banning the Iron Guild outright since it would take too much work to fix them and even then, they would be far less interesting than the other Guilds.
Locally we're limiting the Iron guild's 'Guns, guns, guns' benefit to apply to one weapon bought per character making the Trade action at the Trading post (so effectively it becomes a more 'gun-specific' Savvy trader skill for leader/champions that go trade after battle) and you roll the D3 for the discount for each item separately as you commit to buying it (so you can't roll the max discount by luck and then decide you'll buy all the most expensicve guns, knowing you'll have the max discount for all of them). Granted it is still a powerful benefit but more restricted than RAW.
 

TopsyKretts

Hive Guilder
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Dec 29, 2017
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Was looking at the Guild Bond Rackets. While controlling the Racket, the Law Abiding gang forms an automatic alliance with the Guild. What if there already is an alliance? That is broken/replaced? What if you control one Guild Racket, then claims a new one from winning the stake of a battle? Can you choose? Will the new one automatically replace the old one? What happens with the old one, is it discarded?

Let's say the campaign consists of 3 gangs, each gang plays 3 fights, and after Phase 1, each gang controlls 3 Rackets (including 1 Guild Racket) each. If in one gang steals a Guild Racket in Phase 3, the other gang loses it. The winning gang gains the new? And winning gang's existing Guild Racket is discarded, since there is no longer a pool of Rackets that the gangs can claim?

Even if the challenging gang does not want to claim the opponent's Guild Racket, if the opponent has the Whisper Brokers Racket, they can decide which Racket is at stake, so you could force an unaware challenging opponent to lose their existing Racket and Alliance?
 

Baffo

Gang Champion
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Don't forget the Bond rackets state 'a gang can never control more than 1 Guild bond racket', so if 2 fighting gangs both have guild bonds, they can't effectively take them off each-other.
About the 'Automatic alliance question', I'd say if you are already in a different alliance, you have to declare that you either keep your original alliance (and use the 2x Hive scums and 1x bounty hunter benefit instead of bringing the Guild's entourage) or use the Automatic alliance from the guild Bond to swap to the bond alliance. After that you can't take control any other guild bonds so this situation should not repeat.
 

Baffo

Gang Champion
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385
862
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Ok, so if you already control one, and then take another, the other is discarded?
Yes, I'd say you get to chose which Bond you keep, but as mentioned you can't control multiple Guild bonds, so you have to let go the old bond (becomes Unclaimed), if you want a new bond.
 
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TopsyKretts

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Ok. Keep in mind, in Phase 3, you can only steal Rackets from other players. Any leftover unclaimed Rackets from Phase 1 are discarded.

And, if you lose the Guild Racket, is the Alliance also lost/broken?
 
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TopsyKretts

Hive Guilder
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I'm a little bit uncertain about some of the Racket rewards.

Proxies of the Omnissiah
if the gang controls [...] all fighters in the gang may add either the Shock trait or the Seismic trait to one of their weapons for free. New weapons purchased later may also be given this Trait. These weapons also gain the Unstable trait. If the gang loses control of this Racket, the weapons that gained these additional Traits lose them.​
Witch Seeking
Whilst in control [...] all fighters in the gang may add the Shock trait to one of their weapons that has the Melee trait for free.​
The wording is different here. What happens to new weapons purchased later? What happens to the weapons after losing the Racket? Do you have to decide which weapons are affected first time when taking control of the Racket, or can you change your mind before each battle?
 

Baffo

Gang Champion
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Doesn't it say under the Racket's Boons 'general rules' that all Racket boons are 'in-effect' as long as the Racket that provide them are under the control of the gang (aka fighters gained from Recruitment boons leave the gang if you lose their racket, 'free' items gained from Equipment boons 'disappear' from your stash if you lose the racket, ecc... which is in line with similar boonson territories like Prometheum stash or Sludge sea).

Even in the specific wordings you mention it says 'If the gang controls' and 'Whilist in control' (wording more in line with the Territory wordings), meaning both effects/upgrades are available WHILE you keep control of the Racket.
Granted the wording in the second example seems to be incomplete (it doesn't spell out that you can add the extra trait to newly acquired weapons and lose it if you lose the Racket, but that is how this type of benefit seems to work in most other examples we know, aka Archaeotech device territory and the Proxies of the Omnisciah reacket), but in this case I'd say it is just GW sloppy writing.
 

TopsyKretts

Hive Guilder
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Dec 29, 2017
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Yes, you are right. It's probably just inconsistent and sloppy writing. But it can be confusing when the rules differ. They would never have to specify that the Traits are lost when the Racket is lost, but still did for one but not the other.