Question Book of Outcasts in the tools

Malo

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So I'm reading the Book of Outcasts and the Outcast Leader seems to be overly complex with options. At this point I just feel trolled by GW.

There are certain components of fighter types that affect how the implementation in the current tools structure works. For example things like Venators with different stat lines require a fighter entry per stat line. Additionally, available equipment and skills are assigned to the fighter type.

Outcast leader has:
  • 4 stat lines
  • 25 affiliations
  • 5 archetypes
Am I wrong in that means 500 different versions of the Outcast Leader? With the current implementation, there would need to be 500 different Leaders...
 

trollmeat

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Is there no way to import profile for leader and entourage?
 

spafe

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Can you not just make the 4 stat lines, then its up to the user to manually enter the skill xp costs themselves when using the advances, and likewise just a note saying they tools wont bring in specific weapons/wargear beyond the rarity allowance that every outcast leader is allowed from the trading post.

Outcast gangs are going to be so varied anyway that the user is going to have to use custom tools to allow for most of it.

The only other part I can see being useful is if there is a way to do a one time 'click' to copy a guild delegation into the gang as members. Not sure if that sort of one time button to import a gang is possible though (as I know currently adding a guild delegation just gives the gang a 'read only' view on the delegation)
 

trollmeat

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The only other part I can see being useful is if there is a way to do a one time 'click' to copy a guild delegation into the gang as members.
Would be nice to be able to duplicate fighters while we are at it 😁
 
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Malo

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Is there no way to import profile for leader and entourage?
If you're referring to the delegation, that's a separate issue from the Outcast Leader. As mentioned, this gang is going to require actually adding unique versions of the delegation to the gang instead of attaching a set group that can't be modified.

Can you not just make the 4 stat lines, then its up to the user to manually enter the skill xp costs themselves when using the advances, and likewise just a note saying they tools wont bring in specific weapons/wargear beyond the rarity allowance that every outcast leader is allowed from the trading post.
The problem is the average user isn't going to know how to do the required steps to add everything manually, or turning off equipment/skill restrictions etc. I'm not sure I can see another route though for the leader. Do the tools allow for creating your own Outcast Leader? Yes, kind of. But not with the usual simple interface of your available equipment and skill groups in the ganger editor.
 
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Stoof

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I might be oversimplifying this, but could generating the leader be a separate mini program that just exports to the gang?

I.e it asks you to pick one of the four stat lines, then it asks you to pick an affiliation and it applies whatever the modification is for that rather than looking up the final result, then the same for the archetype.

The final result is then exported.

Say you start with a 1. The option adds another one. Instead of looking up a table of what the result of 1+1 is, it adds 1 to 1. So instead of 500 different final results to choose from, it's only 35 sets of modifications. After all, this is how you do it when actually generating a leader - the book doesn't print 500 options. I hope that makes sense.
 
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Malo

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I might be oversimplifying this, but could generating the leader be a separate mini program that just exports to the gang?

I.e it asks you to pick one of the four stat lines, then it asks you to pick an affiliation and it applies whatever the modification is for that rather than looking up the final result, then the same for the archetype.

The final result is then exported.

Say you start with a 1. The option adds another one. Instead of looking up a table of what the result of 1+1 is, it adds 1 to 1. So instead of 500 different final results to choose from, it's only 35 sets of modifications. After all, this is how you do it when actually generating a leader - the book doesn't print 500 options. I hope that makes sense.
I totally understand where you're going with this. The stats, skills and equipment are all stored as some kind of option array. When you create the fighter you have to select from the options which builds the final version, without having to store all possibilities in the tables. It's a completely logical method of creating this type of fighter. It's also a lot of work to make that happen from an interface perspective.

The current structure was taken from the old Necromunda tools based on a fighter type being rather set in stone to what they have access to. We had some gang types like Venators and new Goliath which introduced the possibility of different stats for the ganger. The ability to apply gene-smithing etc was a hack that worked, and Venator templates works but isn't ideal.

As I'm currently working on re-designing the data structures and building a new backend for the tools, with some of the options available to players and the custom work I've had to do to support these new features, I'm wondering if a new approach of "templates" can solve a lot of these problems.

*note, I've had a few beers so this is a stream of consciousness*

When creating a new ganger, it's basically a simple master reference of your ganger's entity, with a name and not much else. Once created, you can then apply these templates to build the ganger. For 90% of these gangers, there will only be a single template available for stats, skill, equipment etc. These will be automatically assigned and essentially you'll end up with the current version of the tools. You create a ganger and everything is available for you already to choose from as there's no options.

For types like Venators, Outcast Leaders, Gene-smithing etc. you'll get to choose a specific template for your main stats, and if available as well, your skill selection and available equipment. Or if you've created some custom templates for stats, skills or equipment, you'll be able to apply these instead to your ganger, modifying or replacing the existing templates.

Underhive Fighter Template.jpeg


In the above structure, the Template blocks are the only addition to the existing schema. The stats, costs, Xp options etc. in Rules Template would be moved from the Master Record to the Template.

In the example of the Outcast Leader, you would have 4 Rules Templates, 25 Equipment Templates and 5 Skills Templates available. For the Equipment Templates, these would all be existing ones, like the Escher HoB template, which would be associated with the Outcasts Leader type to be available for selection.
 

cardyfreak

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Would templates give you the flexibility to easily implement any changes that may come in the future? Cos it sounds great, and once in place if it’s relatively easy for you to update any shenanigans that the gw design team come up with to break the tools, then it’s a big plus!
 
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