N17 Broken or unbalanced scenarios?

Cyreth

Juve
Jan 30, 2018
44
29
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Erlangen, Germany
Also recall, that usually the game ends when one gang has no fighters on the battlefield at the end of the round. So when all enemy fighter fled the battlefield (which happens at the beginning), you still got the whole round...
That's a good point. There's a conflicting rule on p. 51 of GW 4, though:
Once a gang has Bottled Out (either voluntarily or by failing a Bottle test), the controlling player can declare that the gang will flee the battlefield at the start of any Action phase. [...] Once the gang that has declared that it will flee has only Seriously Injured fighters remaining on the battlefield, the battle ends.
I never really noticed this before, to be honest. You could just ignore the last sentence, of course.
 

Lachi

Ganger
May 6, 2013
118
105
63
Cologne, Germany
ja, that's a problem of GW4, I think, and the general inconsistency/imprcision in rule's writing. GW4 includes many of the issues that were resolved e.g. by the Gang Leadr's Accessories Pack. The 'stupid' reputation-underdog bonus, for instance, is still in the Scenarios in GW4. The GW4 Scenarios refer to GW1 for Battlefield Set-up/Deployment instead of the new rules in GW4 itself and so on.
 
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Jacob Dryearth

Gang Hero
Sep 6, 2016
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Now that the new books are out, and some of these issues have been fixed (winning by bottling) I have the same question as the original. Starting a Dominion Campaign next month, what scenarios are broken?

I already know about Sneak Attack.
 

Kairae

Gang Champion
Dec 29, 2017
319
228
58
Australia
I think Ambush is unbalanced. But that's deliberate, and actually a good thing from a campaign point of view.

I tgthi it's less important that missions are balanced as one offs if they're balanced in the context of the campaign.
 

John Compton

Juve
Honored Tribesman
May 21, 2018
47
60
63
Seattle, WA, USA
I think Ambush is unbalanced. But that's deliberate, and actually a good thing from a campaign point of view.

I tgthi it's less important that missions are balanced as one offs if they're balanced in the context of the campaign.
Also, I think ambush is the rare scenario now that the defender can legit win even when voluntarily bottling. If you get lucky on your setup and roll to set up a fighter anywhere, you can possibly get them to a safe board edge and off without losing anyone. Plus: now the defender sets up all scatter terrain to their liking.

Much better for the defender than before, and there's a good chance a gimmie ambush goes sideways for the attacker if the defender gets lucky on the setup roll.
 

Jacob Dryearth

Gang Hero
Sep 6, 2016
650
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Well yeah I'm not too concerned with scenarios being unbalanced by design, but rather broken scenarios that don't work as intended, or are unfun in unintended ways. That is a fine line that is quite subjective though.
 

enyoss

Gang Hero
Tribe Council
Jul 19, 2015
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Well yeah I'm not too concerned with scenarios being unbalanced by design, but rather broken scenarios that don't work as intended, or are unfun in unintended ways. That is a fine line that is quite subjective though.
Same here.

For me it’s the difference between unbalanced and futile.
 

Jacob Dryearth

Gang Hero
Sep 6, 2016
650
721
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Hey I found one!

I played the Forgotten Riches scenerio, new version recently. Not broken, just unclear about loot securing.

The objective rules say thet loot within 3" of your board edge are secured at the end of the game. Later it says the player who does not flee the battlefield claims all remaining loot. It does not specify in what order these 2 things happen. I rule that the bottling gang claims first, otherwise the winner would get ALL the loot every single game.
 

Lachi

Ganger
May 6, 2013
118
105
63
Cologne, Germany
I think this is only meant for the case when one gang voluntarily bottles and flees the battlefield. I don't have the Book to hand but on the cards from the GLAP it is in the section on voluntarily fleeing the battlefield.
Furthermore, after the game the winner is determined by counting the claimed caskets. This only makes sense when a gang that flees the battelfield (after failign a bottle test involuntarily) can claim caskets.
 

Jacob Dryearth

Gang Hero
Sep 6, 2016
650
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I should not have said "winner" in the last sentence above, but rather the gang that didn't flee. 95% of games are going to end when one player decides to voluntarily flee, since nobody is going to stick around with all seriously injured fighters as they get coup-de-graced.

So to sum up this scenerio: the game ends when only one gang has fighters on the table, either by being wiped out, or by having all their fighters flee (voluntarily or involuntarily) after bottling out. Even if you have been wiped out or fled, you may secure loot within 3" of your edge of the board. After that the remaining gang claims the rest, then you total points for the winner.

Is that how you read it as well? It's worded vaguely and spread across 3 paragraphs in the scenerio, the general bottle rules, and the campaign fleeing rules.
 

enyoss

Gang Hero
Tribe Council
Jul 19, 2015
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On that note: what are the ‘points’ in the Forgotten Riches scenario even for?

You get some for loot caskets, taking enemy fighters OOA, and being the last gang on the battlefield, but then victory is simply determined by whoever has the most loot caskets.

They got so close to a coherent scenario, yet were so far...
 

Jacob Dryearth

Gang Hero
Sep 6, 2016
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According to the XP rewards, the leader of the gang with the most points gets 1XP. So it is possible to win the scenario with more loot caskets (and therefor gain territory), but not get the XP reward for boss because the other gang took out way more fighters. That seems fine, hard to do, but it's not always winner takes all.

On a sider side note, when the heck do you actually roll for capturing? I've literally never played a game where there are only models from one gang on the battlefield at the end, the fleeing gang will almost always leave seriously injured fighters on the table.
 
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Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
3,108
6,715
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Issy-les-Moulineaux 92130 France
On a sider side note, when the heck do you actually roll for capturing? I've literally never played a game where there are only models from one gang on the battlefield at the end, the fleeing gang will almost always leave seriously injured fighters on the table.
It seems that Seriously injured fighters somehow don't count as being on the table for that purpose (and the one of retrieving dead fighter's gear). There is this gem from the Web trait:
A fighter that is Webbed at the end of the game does not succumb to their Injuries and will automatically recover. However, during the Wrap Up, when rolling to determine if any enemy fighters are Captured at the end of the game, add +1 to the dice roll for each enemy fighter currently Webbed and include them among any eligible to be Captured.
So, having a Webbed fighter on the table at the end of the game means that the capture roll (that isn't made, because there was a fighter on the table at the end of the game) gets +1...
 
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enyoss

Gang Hero
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Jul 19, 2015
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According to the XP rewards, the leader of the gang with the most points gets 1XP. So it is possible to win the scenario with more loot caskets (and therefor gain territory), but not get the XP reward for boss because the other gang took out way more fighters. That seems fine, hard to do, but it's not always winner takes all.

On a sider side note, when the heck do you actually roll for capturing? I've literally never played a game where there are only models from one gang on the battlefield at the end, the fleeing gang will almost always leave seriously injured fighters on the table.
I noticed that but then it also says in the case of a draw neither side gets the XP bonus.

So as it stands now it’s ok to lose, get more points, and get that XP bonus. But it’s not ok to draw, get more points, and get the XP bonus.

That indicates to me that they meant to include a different victory condition to the one printed, probably one which simply went on points.

Either that or they meant to replace the whole point based victory/XP system (which is also likely as the current victory system has new wording) and simply forgot to remove the old text.

I guess it does work RAW, but I can imagine there will be a few awkward discussion post-game when one player (probably the loser) thinks it’s clearly a misprint while the other doesn’t.
 
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Wargrieves

Juve
May 24, 2018
18
7
3
Ottawa, ON, Canada
Caravan heist is also pretty bad. If things go bad for the defender they have a choice to fight on even of they are getting massacred or to voluntarily bottle giving the attacker d3 loot on any fighter not seriously injured or out of action. Each loot token for attacker is worth d6x10 so they can get a truly ridiculous lead if instead of try to take loot with a double action they just kill all defenders and force them to flee. No need to play the scenario as intended.
 
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Jacob Dryearth

Gang Hero
Sep 6, 2016
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Well I'm not too concerned about Arbitrator scenarios, a good campaign is run in such a way that high reward scenarios are gated behind achievements or have some sort of drawback such as being outlawed.
 
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UncleFester

Ganger
Jun 12, 2011
144
98
28
Danville, CA, USA
On a sider side note, when the heck do you actually roll for capturing? I've literally never played a game where there are only models from one gang on the battlefield at the end, the fleeing gang will almost always leave seriously injured fighters on the table.
We've always played that you do the Succumb To Injuries rolls first, and then the Captured roll. The rules are not clear about exactly when the roll is supposed to happen, but Wrap-up in the Post-battle sequence states to do Succumb to Injuries first, then do other "at end of battle" events.

Also, the Being Captured rules (p. 89) say:
Roll 2D6 and add the number of enemy fighters who went Out of Action (including those who succumbed to their injuries during the Wrap-up).​

So clearly, you are meant to do the Captured roll when the losing team had Seriously Injured fighters on the field. Maybe the Being Captured rules should start with "If only one gang has active fighters on the..."? Which I think is almost always.
 
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Jacob Dryearth

Gang Hero
Sep 6, 2016
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We've always played that you do the Succumb To Injuries rolls first, and then the Captured roll. The rules are not clear about exactly when the roll is supposed to happen, but Wrap-up in the Post-battle sequence states to do Succumb to Injuries first, then do other "at end of battle" events.

Also, the Being Captured rules (p. 89) say:
Roll 2D6 and add the number of enemy fighters who went Out of Action (including those who succumbed to their injuries during the Wrap-up).​

So clearly, you are meant to do the Captured roll when the losing team had Seriously Injured fighters on the field. Maybe the Being Captured rules should start with "If only one gang has active fighters on the..."? Which I think is almost always.
The part that has always bothered me about this is that it says to roll for capture if one gang has no fighters left at the end of the battle. That doesn't happen most of the time as someone will bottle with some seriously injured fighters on the table 99% of the time, and they don't roll to succumb to injuries until the wrap up.
 

enyoss

Gang Hero
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Jul 19, 2015
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Even if you do the capture thingy after seeing if fighters succumb to their injuries, which seems sensible given the wording implies that’s how it works, if there are any seriously injured enemy fighters on the battlefield who didn’t succumb to their injuries they would prevent anybody being captured.

That sound right?

We’ve alway done capture after succumb, and assumed that seriously injured fighters fled if they didn’t succumb, but looks like they don’t.

I don’t think I’m going to tell the group... can’t be bothered with the hassle. Thanks you lot :D.
 
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