N18 Can Chaos Helots hire a Bullet Merchant?
- Thread starter Bandit247
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According to Book of Ruin page 6 one of the effects of being an outlaw gang is only being able to hire outlaw hangers on.
Bullet Merchant doesn't list an alignment, but the default is assumed to be lawful. It, along with many every other hanger on listings, says it's available to any gang at higher cost than Orlocks pay...
Ask your arbitrator if you can be allowed to take one at the higher rate, preferably after hiding their copy of the Book of Ruin.
I disagree because of that part not only he does not have alignement but he trade at the black market but that just my opinion.
In the Law and Misrule campaign (which is where most of the alignment tomfoolery comes from) Law abiding gangs have restricted access to the Black Market (-1 modifier under the old rules) - but they still have access.
Under the 2023 core rules (specifically page 147) the Black Market doesn't exist anymore and you can access the stuff in the same marketplace at a reduced availability, as the availability of illegal equipment is considered to be at -4 modifier for law-abiding gangs.
So you'd need a 14 on your trade roll to get access to Illegal 10 warp rounds normally, with a Bullet Merchant it's common and doesn't require a roll for access.
Bullet Merchant is pretty cool eh? Pity RAW it's restricted to law-abiding gangs, based on a line in a book that really needs an update anyway (Book of Ruin).
But on the upside outlaw gangs can get access to illegal items really easily. On the downside for them, wargear that used to be common in the Black Market but not available elsewhere (such as Ablative Overlay) doesn't have a rarity on its 2023 listing, so it's assumed to be common, no longer illegal, and accessible to everyone. Joy?
@James Workshop, please release Book of the Deep Hive or whatever you want to call the next non-House splat with: updates for the effects of outlaw vs law abiding post 2023 rules, the rules for the other three Chaos alignments, an update for the Helots that includes access to mutations and final freaking clarity on whatever skills The Witch has access to, and a re-balance of GSC and CGC for the post-2023 rules landscape.
"Outlaw gangs can hire only Outlaw Hangers-on, Brutes, Hired Guns and Dramatis Personae." -Ruin p6
The common interpretation is that there are 2 types of hangers-on: Law-abiding and Outlaw. And the gangs can only choose from the same alignment.
However, also Ruin:
"As well as the Hangers-on detailed in both the Necromunda: Gangs of the Underhive and Necromunda: The Book of Judgement books, both cults and Outlaw gangs will make use of specialised Hangers-on to help them in their subversive activities. Below is a collection of Hangers-on designed with Outlaw and Chaos Corrupted gangs in mind. See page 83 of Necromunda: Gangs of the Underhive for the full rules on using Hangers-on." -Ruin p52
This is the same mess as always, contradicting the previous quote. Interestingly it mentions Hangers-on from Gangs of the Underhive being used by both cults and Outlaw gangs. Of course GotU is N18 and the Law Abiding / Outlaw distinction is N19, so naturally none of those hangers-on are outlaw. But are they Law Abiding?
Anyway, this has been discussed forever and there are no answers, or everyone finds their own conflicting answers.
The common interpretation is that there are 2 types of hangers-on: Law-abiding and Outlaw. And the gangs can only choose from the same alignment.
However, also Ruin:
"As well as the Hangers-on detailed in both the Necromunda: Gangs of the Underhive and Necromunda: The Book of Judgement books, both cults and Outlaw gangs will make use of specialised Hangers-on to help them in their subversive activities. Below is a collection of Hangers-on designed with Outlaw and Chaos Corrupted gangs in mind. See page 83 of Necromunda: Gangs of the Underhive for the full rules on using Hangers-on." -Ruin p52
This is the same mess as always, contradicting the previous quote. Interestingly it mentions Hangers-on from Gangs of the Underhive being used by both cults and Outlaw gangs. Of course GotU is N18 and the Law Abiding / Outlaw distinction is N19, so naturally none of those hangers-on are outlaw. But are they Law Abiding?
Anyway, this has been discussed forever and there are no answers, or everyone finds their own conflicting answers.
I agree with you it's a mess
.from the Book of Judgement.
This is why i don't agree about the impossibility of using a bullet merchant. Even if it was the case if you this two hangers on you could still be possible to remove the restriction.
Same with Proxy:
Possbly there are only neutral and outlaw hangers-on, no law abiding only. That would be inline with all other rules which seem to give Outlaw mostly bonuses and more options compared to Øaw Abiding. Which means any House gang that doesn't become Outlaw and/or Corrupted/Infected are at a handicap.
However, Brutes and Hired Guns seem to go the opposite way. Simply they are binary - either Law Abiding or Outlaw.
Possbly there are only neutral and outlaw hangers-on, no law abiding only. That would be inline with all other rules which seem to give Outlaw mostly bonuses and more options compared to Øaw Abiding. Which means any House gang that doesn't become Outlaw and/or Corrupted/Infected are at a handicap.
However, Brutes and Hired Guns seem to go the opposite way. Simply they are binary - either Law Abiding or Outlaw.
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THIS! Right here at the bottom about the updates is so damn correct. As a new player I bought a bunch of the Corpse Grinders, Genestealers, & Chaos Helots because those were my favorite factions based on my knowledge of the 40k Universe. It took about 10 games of learning the game with my roommate before realizing that all 3 of them had some big flaws with the ruleset in the Book of Ruin. Unfortunetely I have let the $300 worth of models sit on the shelf for now until the new book(s) come out.
The second passage from Book of Ruin isn't contradicting the first, it's just saying to look at Gangs of the Underhive for the full rules on using Hangers-On, eg: they don't fight for you except in rare circumstances, go away if you lose reputation, etc. That's not a "go here to use this list of additional hangers on", it's a "go here to look for the rules for adding Hangers On to your gang".
That said, there should be neutral Hangers-On. One of the problems of them discarding Gangs of the Underhive from errata and generally memoryholing it - they fail to take into account just how much stuff was only published there (or in otherwise specialised books like Judgment and Ruin).
Depends on the Affiliation of the Outcast Gang, but requires reading each entry and the source-book for each delegation/noble house/organisation.We also have the Outcast, which are neither, so it's unclear which Hanger-ons they are allowed to recruit
Clanless (page 19) specifically don't suffer any drawbacks from being law abiding or outlaw, explicitly specifying they can obtain both law abiding and outlaw hangers-on (which makes sense - they are otherwise the least powerful affiliation as they get no additional wargear options or access to Alliances). Weirdly contradictorily, Mutant Gangs have to be Clanless which means the gang with what might be the most obviously outward sign of Chaos-taint gets to enjoy immunity from the drawbacks of being an Outlaw Gang in terms of trade and recruitment, but cannot ally.
Other Affiliation outcast can recruit depending on their alignment (law abiding or outlaw), which itself is subscribed by their specific Affiliation (which requires reaching for the specific entries in each of the House Of book). The pattern in the "House of" Books appears to be* each will have a lawful-only, outlaw-only, and universal.
Eg:
-Narco Lords (House of Chains page 90) can only formed alliances with Outlaw gangs, so the Outcast gang that picks Narco needs to be Outlaw-aligned on creation. I picked this as the first example because I found it hilarious that Criminal Affiliation doesn't explicitly prescribe outlaw alignment! Slave Guild only ally's with Lawful, House Greim can ally with any.
-In the House of Blades, Cold Traders only ally with outlaws, Water Guild only ally with lawful. House Ulanti can ally with either.
As discussed in the Outcasts thread, there's an argument in favour of including the Delegation/Guild/Noble House-specific rules when creating Outcast gangs, at the very least to allow for fluffy, appropriate, and not-particularly-overpowered things like an Outcast Slaver Guild Delegation to train its fighters between encounters (as you would expect them to be able to).
*I'm not checking 6 books. TopsyKretts might have a better option/opinion.
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I didn't underline the quote, it came that way. The part I was referring to was not the rules on how to use hangers-on, but the first part:
Slightly modified:
"As well as the Hangers-on detailed in [GotU] and [Judgement], Outlaw gangs will make use of specialised Hangers-on to help them in their subversive activities."
I read this as "In addition to normal universal hangers-on, Outlaw gangs use Outlaw Hangers-on to help them."
But the GSC are pretty competitive (and tons of fun) with the RAW in Book of Ruin!
You just have to be careful not to spam too many 50 credit hand flamers and psychic familiars on your champions, and not overcommit resources to Aberrants.
The hand flamers will be less problematic for Cawdor and Goliath players anyways (there’s a Goliath tactics card which nullifies blaze for the battle) and you can ramp up the familiars in late-game as your opponents’ threat levels increase.
That said, Abberants should really have an option to build as Hypermorphs, maybe as the Brute-equivalent for the gang?
And maybe a weaker version of Acolytes to work as Prospects, maybe with less wounds?
Gramatically, it says that in addition to using the Hangers-On that are detailed in GotU and BoJ, both cults [which are Outlaws] and Outlaws use special Outlaw Hangers-On as well. And none of those pointed-to-as-also-used-by-Outlaw-gangs Hangers On in those two books are flagged as "Outlaw Hangers-On". So that really is a contradiction to the first quote's "Outlaw gangs can only use Outlaw Hangers-On."
Breaking out the sentence's parts:
2. Outlaw gangs use specialized Outlaw Hangers-On.
as well as
1. Outlaw gangs use the Hangers-On detailed in GotU and BoJ.
"Both cults and Outlaw gangs will make use of specialised Hangers-On to help them in their subversive activities, as well as the Hangers-on detailed in both the Necromunda: Gangs of the Underhive and Necromunda: The Book of Judgement books."
Ah, y’see the big problem there was that 2/3 of those were filler gangs released as a quick PDF back in 2017/8 because there were no other gangs available except the ones in the boxed set and the rest got dribbled out over the space of a year. So they just used stuff that was already available in 40k.
Then after Dark Uprising was released GW shoved out Books of Ruin and Justice. Consequently the PDFs were dusted off, updated a bit and shoved in the BoR as more filler content.
Heck, even the Corpse Grinder Cult has been mostly forgotten since 2019, with only a weapon upgrade kit released since then.
Here’s a general tip: if they don’t have a book entirely to themselves and are shoved into someone else’s book, they’re a fun side gang but not a main one. See: Slave Ogryns.
(I suspect AWN and Squats might go that way too)
I know... Unluckily, I picked house Cawdor as affiliation, the only house having an alignment depending on it's choice of fighters... But since Hive Scum are neither Redemptionist nor Cawdor... I wish they'd pick fewer terms to work with, now we have Outcast, Outlaw, Criminal, Lawful... But's it's the lack of rules for how to deal with older books/ rules, which were written in the past = either you reinterpret them yourself in the light of the new rulebook, or you stick to the old rules, or just use your own judgment and follow what feels right to you and your friends you play with.
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