N18 Can I roll the Rapid Fire Dice After I Ro to Hit?

[Styles]

I normally roll the rapid fire dice at the same time as rolling to hit. But I have an orlock with bullet lord which allows him to change a rapid fire dice to a 3, but is one use only and makes his weapon run out of ammo, so is on any use if I actually hit.

So can I roll to hit, then roll the rapid fire dice? So I will only use bullet lord if I actually hit. As I cant find anything in the rules that actually says you have to roll the rapid fire dice in the same roll to hit? Even though everyone does to speed up the game.

 

[boatie]

I thought Bullet Lord wasn't 'change it to a 3' but 'instead of rolling you get a 3'. I am relying on a friend's interpretation of the book though as I don't have it myself.
We have been doing exactly as you suggest. Most attacks we do simultaneously, but for the Orlocks we roll them sequentially. It has anti-synergy with Lucky though, where you can change a die to a 6. Then you want to roll simultaneously. If you roll a 1 on the hit, but 3 hits on the Firepower, that's a good time to use Lucky, while a 1 on the hit and a 1 on the Firepower is less attactive.

 

[Styles]

I thought Bullet Lord wasn't 'change it to a 3' but 'instead of rolling you get a 3'. I am relying on a friend's interpretation of the book though as I don't have it myself.
We have been doing exactly as you suggest. Most attacks we do simultaneously, but for the Orlocks we roll them sequentially. It has anti-synergy with Lucky though, where you can change a die to a 6. Then you want to roll simultaneously. If you roll a 1 on the hit, but 3 hits on the Firepower, that's a good time to use Lucky, while a 1 on the hit and a 1 on the Firepower is less attactive.

Sorry I shouldn't have said change to a 3.

 

[Thorgor]

This seems to indicate both dice are rolled simultaneously:

 

[Ben_S]

It says that you must roll the Firepower dice as well as the hit dice, but it doesn't actually say that you need to roll them at the same time, even if that may have been intended or assumed.

 

[Thorgor]

True, but it's all we have to work with.
Since nothing instructs you to roll them one after the other, or whether the FW dice has to be rolled before or after the D6, I think it's best to assume that the intent is for both to be rolled at the same time.

 

[Ben_S]

Since nothing instructs you to roll them one after the other ... I think it's best to assume that the intent is for both to be rolled at the same time.

Why not say 'since nothing instructs you to roll them at the same time, it's best to assume that the intent is for them to be rolled one after the other'?

I'm not saying that is the intent, but I don't see reason to make the other assumption either. I think we simply don't know either way.

 

[Thorgor]

Because rolling one after the other would require yet another instruction that we also lack (which one should be rolled first). It makes the method for which only one instruction is missing more plausible (it's a 50|25|25 probability).

My best guess is that the order didn't originally matter so they didn't bother. In this situation I think it's safe to assume that most players would roll both dice simultaneously (because it's faster), making it the de-facto norm in everyone's mind (including the writers'). So when the writers then add a rule for which the order matters without providing any additional details about said order, it seems natural to continue applying the 'norm'.

It's not a hill I'm ready do die on though.

 

[Scabs]

There is a common situation when it does matter when the FP dice are rolled. Take the Rapid Fire (2) Heavy Stubber. The player can choose to roll more than one FP dice up to the number shown. So, 1 or 2 for the HS. Each die has a chance to cause an ammo check. If the player knows in advance he has hit, he would probably choose to roll 2 FP dice. If he knows he missed, probably roll 1.

Just pointing out that rolling the Hit die and FP die/dice simultaneously can be different than rolling the Hit die first. I don't see that the rules for Bullet Lord are definitive. If anyone wants an opinion, I'm inclined to say Bullet Lord must be declared before any dice are rolled. Adds an element of chance. But, that's just me. I ain't dying on that hill, either.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Make it simple, roll simultaneously. Technically, Fire Power should be rolled first, because squeezing the trigger happens before bullets hit any targets.

 

[Jakkarra]

Make it simple, roll simultaneously. Technically, Fire Power should be rolled first, because squeezing the trigger happens before bullets hit any targets.

The Firepower Dice isnt necessarily anything to do with squeezing the trigger, though. The weapon jams/breaks/runs out of ammo /after/ firing, not before. It could be argued either way.

 

[Scabs]

But you don't know that before firing, either. You don't know you missed until you fired. Not before. You don't know you jammed, ran out of ammo, etc. till after your fired. Assuming about ten extraneous "simulated real life" factors that could affect the target, firer, terrain, environment, etc. Which means rolling (and declaring) simultaneously covers a lot of unknowns. For what it's worth. I wouldn't argue it either way. To thine own self be true.