N18 Can regular gangers buy special ammo from trading post?

Sump Thing

Ganger
Dec 5, 2014
112
112
53
Can normal gang fighters have special ammo from the trading post, like for shotguns and specialist grenade launcher? Ammo is listed under weapons in both the trading post and gang lists, and gang fighters have no mention being able to use TP weps, only wargear. So is ammo considered a wargear? How is this handled in your gaming groups?

There's always my favorite combo of giving firestorm ammo to combat shotguns and turning orlocks into a gang of cheap heavy flamers. Hire the ammo merchant too, and you don't have to rebuy firestrom every time you fail the ammo check.

EDIT: the discussion about ammos turned out to be a rather long one, so here's a short summary of what was found out

  • You can't throw bullets alone, buy the gun first and ammo second.
  • Ammos have weapon profiles, and follow the rules for weapons how to use them.
  • Ammos are listed under weapons in gang lists and under various weapons tables in the trading post.
  • Only gang members who have access to a specific weapons table in the trading post, can have special ammo for their guns from there.
  • Although "wargear" term does not exist in the current core rules, it's still in the gang equipment lists and gang fighters can have items from categories listed under it from the trading post, like grenades.
  • The ammo limitation is a game balancing factor, to prevent mutually assured shatter shell destruction, it encourages to use gang's house flavors against the opponent.
  • You can always agree with your local gaming group, that special ammo is available for all.
There was also some discussion about grammar, but it was based on misconception to begin with. Feel free to check it out that tickles your fancy.
 
Last edited:
Yes they can. Ammo types are Wargear.
Allison Cameron- "He was shot?"
Greg House -"No somebody threw it at him..."
They may have now included many of the special ammos are in the same table (a number of book of Peril, Judgement and Ruin ones are not and those books are still currant and they Wargear there).
However they are listed as +5 +10 or whatever cost to the weapon not a flat cost themselves. This means that it is an optional addition and not a full weapon in its own right, like sights and other weapon accessories.

Put another way you buy the ammo for your existing weapon not buy a new flamer combat shotgun. Ergo it's Wargear.

Edit.
In addition Grenades and booby traps are listed in the same tables as Weapons and they are explicitly stated as Wargear so being in the weaponry section does not mean the count as Weapon necessarily.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TopsyKretts
There's always my favorite combo of giving firestorm ammo to combat shotguns and turning orlocks into a gang of cheap heavy flamers. Hire the ammo merchant too, and you don't have to rebuy firestrom every time you fail the ammo check.
If you are going for the Bullet Merchant to change Limited to Scarce, consider some additional ammo types as well for your shotguns. Especially Shatter shells.
Shatter shells basically give you a option of a 18" frag grenade. That you can Aim (basis) with. Add a sight to. Trades Knockback for a little AP. And has a accuracy bonus. And does not require a ammo check every time you use it just on the Firepower ammo roll. Apart from the sawn off it has a higher range than your other ammos as well. For half the price.

Never buy thrown frag grenades for your Shotgunners when you have a Bullet Merchant. With the Firestorm and Shatter shells you get a heavy flamer/Frag grenade launcher/ Combat shotgun for a mere 125 credits.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Psyan and Aulenback
Yes they can. Ammo types are Wargear.
They may have now included many of the special ammos are in the same table (a number of book of Peril, Judgement and Ruin ones are not and those books are still currant and they Wargear there).
The problem with necromunda is that GW does not faq old rules when new ones come out. Usually players need to figure things out with the new rule set and how to apply the old ones into them. So, can Enforcers still use group activation, even if they don't have the skill in their gang list; can my leader have a free random xeno weapon instead of buying sling gun or armourweave if allied with cold traders; ammo used to be wargear, but now has been moved under weapons like in the gang lists, is it only available to those access to a specific list. It's up to the local gaming group how they will interpret the changes. I take your gaming group is for the full ammo access.
Edit.
In addition Grenades and booby traps are listed in the same tables as Weapons and they are explicitly stated as Wargear so being in the weaponry section does not mean the count as Weapon necessarily.
Unlike ammo, grenades are listed under wargear in the gang lists, and wargear you can buy from the trading post to regular gang fighters. Are mines now for only those with full TP access.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aulenback
Unlike ammo, grenades are listed under wargear in the gang lists, and wargear you can buy from the trading post to regular gang fighters. Are mines now for only those with full TP access.
Grenades are listed as Wargear on the Gang lists but under weapons in the trade post as of Core rulebook. So it's both. As per rules as written the concept of weapons and Wargear is not exclusive.
By "mines" I take it you mean Booby traps. They are Gang Equipment so the gang as a whole has them not a specific model. Just like ammo caches. All gangs have access to them depending on Rarity rolls.

And again as I pointed out because GW used the phrasing "+5" (or what ever price it is) it denotes that it is separate from the weapon. Take the hot shot las pack. That's a Weapon Accessory which you add to a existing lasgun/pistol.

Also look at the format they used for the various weapons with different ammo.
They give the top line the weapons base profile including it's cost. That is the fundamental weapon. The additional lines below are subsections that modified or add to the base profile. That grammatically states they are separate things you add to the original (again the +** credit cost) and they are not weapons themselves. Just try throwing a bullet instead of shooting it. Ammo are not weapon choices they are additions to the weapon.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aulenback
Grenades are listed as Wargear on the Gang lists but under weapons in the trade post as of Core rulebook. So it's both. As per rules as written the concept of weapons and Wargear is not exclusive.
Yes, grenades are both (and hot shot pack apparently), they are listed under wargear in the gang lists, and under grenades in the trading post section of the core rulebook. If greandes swing both ways, it doesn't mean that it automatically applies to others. For example firestorm ammo is found under the basic weapons section of the trading post section of the core rule book, not under grenades, nor in the wargears of the gang lists. If a gang fighter can take wargear from the trading post during the campaign, but not weapons from basic weapons lists, raw would be that grenades are ok, but firestorm not.

The current ammo format is probably there to make it easier to understand that you need to buy the weapon first and special ammo second. The format of the Gangs of the Underhive was easily understood so, that you could buy a grenade launcher with just smokes (15 creds)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aulenback
Yes, grenades are both (and hot shot pack apparently), they are listed under wargear in the gang lists, and under grenades in the trading post section of the core rulebook. If greandes swing both ways, it doesn't mean that it automatically applies to others. For example firestorm ammo is found under the basic weapons section of the trading post section of the core rule book, not under grenades, nor in the wargears of the gang lists. If a gang fighter can take wargear from the trading post during the campaign, but not weapons from basic weapons lists, raw would be that grenades are ok, but firestorm not.

The current ammo format is probably there to make it easier to understand that you need to buy the weapon first and special ammo second. The format of the Gangs of the Underhive was easily understood so, that you could buy a grenade launcher with just smokes (15 creds)
If greandes swing both ways
Don't Tell my Ogryns that! They'll think you can just drop the grenades!
it doesn't mean that it automatically applies to others
It does not mean it does not either.
If a gang fighter can take wargear from the trading post during the campaign, but not weapons from basic weapons lists, raw would be that grenades are ok, but firestorm not.
The grenades said fighter could take, but if they have no access to the Combat shotgun they can't add Firestorm ammo to the weapon they don't have. The ammo has "+30" for the firestorm ammo but it does not have "30" credits as a flat price. It requires something to add it to hence the "+" sign. once you have the Combat Shotgun you can then add the ammo to the weapon.

Bizarrely GW have written that grammatically correctly and from a pure grammar point you can absolutely add any ammo to the appropriate weapon.

With the ones on the Gang list, mainly just Dum Dums, your gang can just buy then from gang creation and don't need rarity rolls to get them (any equipment on the Gang list does not need Rare rolls). Each entry of a special ammo type is on a different line in a sub heading to the base weapon as well clearly separating them from the base weapon so it is not a Weapon choice. it is a adjunct to the weapon choice and Gangers are restricted to the Weapon choice of thier list (the exact words) not the adjunct to the weapon.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aulenback
So the problem with ammo and weapons lists boils down how the access to the list is interpreted. Is it so, that if the model does not have access to a certain trading post weapon list, he cannot even buy ammo for his weapon there. Or does english grammar indicate the ammo is not part of the lists, but wargear, therefore free for all.

However, the problem with wargear is that it does not exist in the current core rulebook. It used to, but instead we now have Armour, Bionics, Weapon accessories etc. So, if a regular gang fighter can be given additional wargear purchased from the trading post during the course of the campaign what does he get. Lucky for us, the divide between weapons and wargear still exists in equipment lists of the gang books. According to the lists, wargear is greandes, armour, personal equipment and weapon accessories. All these can be found from the trading post of the current core rulebook, so it would be safe to say at least these are purchasable for a gang fighter. Also there are some expetions that the model needs to be wounded or have gang hierarchy special rule for some equipment.

Under the weapons in gang books equipment lists are things like basic weapons, pistols etc and also their ammo. So, where does the ammo belong then, if grammar says they are not part of the weapons lists? Grammatically guns and bullets are different entities, but rules vice they fall under the same category on who can use them.

Also, I must admit that there are some cases where ammo purchased from the trading post weapons lists can be given to a regular gang fighter, as equipment from the gangs stash can be given even to a gang fighter if it respects the restrictions mentioned in the model's entry in their gang lists. So if a model has access to a sawn-off shotgun and its solid shots (10 creds) from their gang list, it can be given solid shots (5 creds) purchased from the trading post.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lastbrat
Here are my thoughts:

- if ammo is not wargear then it is mostly useless as no one will ever use them.
e.g. You're not going to give a leader or champ an autogun to get rad ammo, you're going to give them the plasma gun.

- Ammo on their own is not a weapon, see Lunarcruiser's analogy of "throwing bullets".

- If I had to guess, their current formatting for ammo is there to make it easier to read. i.e. it is easy to see what ammo goes with which gun without a lot of prefixes/duplication.

I would play them as wargear and/or wargear adjacent (anyone can use them as long as they have the gun that goes with them) as that is clearly their intent even if it's not explicitly spelled out in the rules.

However, you are free to play them any way you want and/or talk to your arbiter.
 
"- if ammo is not wargear then it is mostly useless as no one will ever use them.
e.g. You're not going to give a leader or champ an autogun to get rad ammo, you're going to give them the plasma gun." True. or the Grav Gun. Or Melta. Many fun goodies.

"- Ammo on their own is not a weapon, see Lunarcruiser's analogy of "throwing bullets". Thank you. I mostly credit that point to a House episode though hehe.

- If I had to guess, their current formatting for ammo is there to make it easier to read. i.e. it is easy to see what ammo goes with which gun without a lot of prefixes/duplication.
again True. Who knew GW could actually be sensible in editing?

Best Wishes :)
 
- if ammo is not wargear then it is mostly useless as no one will ever use them.
e.g. You're not going to give a leader or champ an autogun to get rad ammo, you're going to give them the plasma gun.
It's a game balance thing. All gangs would turn into copy-paste shotgun-shatter shell hordes, instead of using their house specific abilities for the win. Getting into close combat would be nigh impossible through the shatter rain, but at least goliaths would still be a playable gang, just give shotguns and reduced bone density (str) to you gang fighters and ignore the close combat.

Probably the reason for dropping some of the ammo out of the current core book, ist that they are not that usable in the hands of camps and leaders, or they make a cheap weapon op
I would play them as wargear and/or wargear adjacent (anyone can use them as long as they have the gun that goes with them) as that is clearly their intent even if it's not explicitly spelled out in the rules.
The problem is that wargear doesn't exist in the core rulebook anymore, and ammo is listed under the weapons in the gang lists and the trading post. Yes, I know you don't throw bullets, but use them with guns, but in the rules they are listed under a table called "weapons" and they have a weapon profiles.

If I started to play necromunda today, with the current rulebook, and without any knowledge that in previous versions and that ammo used to be wargear, how would I figure out that they are free for all
 
Again it all in the grammar of the Core rulebook table with the ammo being separate to the weapon and a separate addition.
 
Again it all in the grammar of the Core rulebook table with the ammo being separate to the weapon and a separate addition.
I must admit that my native language grammar has nothing on table format, just the normal verbs and nouns and what nots, and I probably skipped the english class where the correct grammar for lay outing was taught. I also kind of curious how the tables are made in non-english rulebooks and how do you understand them

Again it all in the grammar of the Core rulebook table with the ammo being separate to the weapon and a separate addition.
If grammar says they do not fall under the weapons table, then where would grammar place them in the rulebook? What category do they belong and how to explain to a necromunda noob
 
I must admit that my native language grammar has nothing on table format, just the normal verbs and nouns and what nots, and I probably skipped the english class where the correct grammar for lay outing was taught. I also kind of curious how the tables are made in non-english rulebooks and how do you understand them


If grammar says they do not fall under the weapons table, then where would grammar place them in the rulebook? What category do they belong and how to explain to a necromunda noob
Its basic (as in the term base not being condescending) math grammar used worldwide. Not just english.

What category do they belong and how to explain to a necromunda noob
As a Addition to the weapon (Hence the + sign)
 
Necromunda's rules are crunchy and in general it's better to approach them as "guidelines" for the more ambiguous stuff.

There are some rules that are well written and don't open themselves up for interpretation.

There are others where they are poorly defined at best.

Necromunda isn't a competitive, tournament style game and I wouldn't approach it as such.
In my opinion, it's about creating a fun experience for the players involved.

Don't get me wrong games need rules, after all the rules are what make the game fun.

In that spirit, ask yourself:
- is it more fun to gatekeep the ammo to leaders and champs only?
(if you go that route, then, for all intents and purposes, ammo might as well not exists as leaders and champs aren't likely going to take the guns that use them.)

If so, then there you go.

If not not, then you know what to do ;).
 
So if a model has access to a sawn-off shotgun and its solid shots (10 creds) from their gang list, it can be given solid shots (5 creds) purchased from the trading post.
I thought if an item appeared on a gang list then its price took precedence over a trading post one.

This was to stop people doing two things; going to the trading post to buy a cheaper version of the thing they have and to stop them selling off their cheap versions for a larger trading post price.

I think (?) that in some gangs even different fighters have different prices for things - so you shouldn’t just swap between them.

That’s where this buying to the stash thing is kinda crap (IMHO). Most of the time people are buying for a specific fighter, not to just put it in storage - that should be for cast off items and left over cash.

Problem is there’s so many books, so many variants on the same rules, so many omissions and mistakes that it’s often difficult to really establish what they actually want players to do.

EDIT:
I was just having a muse on this and I decided to glance at the books.

First - Book of Peril - Special Ammunition is classed under Weapons, Wargear is literally the next section along.

Second -

As a Addition to the weapon (Hence the + sign)
In that spirit, ask yourself:
- is it more fun to gatekeep the ammo to leaders and champs only?
(if you go that route, then, for all intents and purposes, ammo might as well not exists as leaders and champs aren't likely going to take the guns that use them.)

So… in that case, with Orlocks the Gunner (Ganger) is only allowed a Solid and Scatter Shotgun on their list.

The Champion gets that plus the options of adding Inferno and Executioner ammo.

That opens up the the question “why not give the ganger those types too?”. Clearly GW didn’t want them having them. Then you whack in the “From stash” stuff and suddenly they can get them - but after one game. Eh? Why does that make any difference? It’s that weird “not in game one” restriction from N18 again!!

Unless, as Gangers can’t have access to the weapons section of anything but their own list then they can’t get the fancy ammo either.

As for Solid sawn-off being +5 creds, that is in the new Core book and was in the Outcast book too - a copy+paste error? A stealth update??

Everyone else who has one in a pre-Outcast gang list is +10. Weird.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Ben_S
That opens up the the question “why not give the ganger those types too?”. Clearly GW didn’t want them having them. Then you whack in the “From stash” stuff and suddenly they can get them - but after one game. Eh? Why does that make any difference? It’s that weird “not in game one” restriction from N18 again!!
If I had to guess it's a level of access thing.

Stuff bought from the trading post takes a post battle action to acquire. Thus you need to be able to send someone to get it. If you can't send people to get it, then you can't get it. e.g. convalesce. Once a trading post item is purchased it goes to the stash and you can give it to anyone able to equip it.

On the other hand stuff on the house list you have access to all the time. You don' t need a post battle action to get it and when purchased it goes directly to a fighter and not to the stash.

I see the argument for treating ammo as weapons (after all there are two columns on the house lists--weapons and wargear) and if the ammo isn't on a ganger's house list then they can't use it. You could say that is all part of the flavor of the different gangs and that seems like a reasonable stance. But man does that make some gang's gangers extra terrible. e.g. Delaque gangers.

I think either way to play it is fine. You just need to make things clear at the start of the campaign.
 
Its basic (as in the term base not being condescending) math grammar used worldwide. Not just english.
It's all new to me, please provide a link to this math grammar.

In that spirit, ask yourself:
- is it more fun to gatekeep the ammo to leaders and champs only?
(if you go that route, then, for all intents and purposes, ammo might as well not exists as leaders and champs aren't likely going to take the guns that use them.)
If we are talking about fun, I personally find it more enjoyable to figure out how to best use my house gang's flavors against enemy's flavors, then spamming the battlefield with shatter shells.

And ammo still has its place in the game, shotguns are great for any close combat orientated champs/bosses, boltguns for those with more supportive role, and would give an autogun to my boss, if all he does is overlord the heavy weapon user.

I see the argument for treating ammo as weapons (after all there are two columns on the house lists--weapons and wargear) and if the ammo isn't on a ganger's house list then they can't use it. You could say that is all part of the flavor of the different gangs and that seems like a reasonable stance. But man does that make some gang's gangers extra terrible. e.g. Delaque gangers.
Delaque gang fighters have an amazing selection of pistols. Move in range while nacht-ghouls and other infiltrators are causing havoc in the enemy lines. Use the flavors.
 
It's all new to me, please provide a link to this math grammar.
Subheadings are related to the heading but are separate data. They may be a requirement but the may not and be applied conditions.

When a + sign is used as a definite article, i.e when it says "+30" for Firestorm ammo, it denotes a optional addition to the base article, i.e. the combat shotgun.

You apply the data and conditions in top down left to right order.
( Just ignore the range etc part of the item it's not relevant to how you add the items).
Top line is Combat shotgun Credit cost "70". It is the heading and the cost is a flat 70 which denotes it is the base article. You apply this line first.
Next you apply the next lines (- salvo and -shredder ammo) these two are the 1st subheadings of the base article. These have a cost of "+0". This denotes they are additional items of data you can add to the base article (the 70 credit combat shotgun). (You actually have the option not to include those ammo but why would you not as they are free)?

You now get to the other ammo types. You will see that as printed they are subheadings of subheadings
Combat shotgun
-shredder
-firestorm
This separates the base article, Combat shotgun, from the second article, the shredder, and the third article l, the Firestorm, is a separate data line to both the base and second articles, the combat shotgun and the shredder.

Because the costs of both the shredder and firestorm (and the others) are listed as "+0" or "+30" that states it is a optional addition to the flat cost of "70" for the shotgun.

Maths wise it does state that the items, while related to each other, they are separate items that can be combined in a linked item but is a option.

Because the Combat shotgun is a shared profile between many gangs the Trade Post entry applies to all of them.
If a weapon was specific to a individual entry like the Enforcers bolters shotgun etc that is different. While the Enforcers shotgun has a identical mechanical profile to the combat shotguns salvo and shredder ammo as the base article in that case is the "Enforcer shotgun" and it does not have Firestorm in any published subheadings of that weapon that gun can't take them but the generic Combat shotgun can.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Timmythesupermonkey
Subheadings are related to the heading but are separate data. They may be a requirement but the may not and be applied conditions.
You are saying that the weapons tables are full of headings and subheadings? Would one messy index if you created it with these guidelines, and not at all how I was taught to use them. GW should publish their own grammar book so people could understand what they are writing in their rules.

Maths wise it does state that the items, while related to each other, they are separate items that can be combined in a linked item but is a option.
This is true, but they are still in the same list called "weapons." If the rules refer to said list, it is safe to assume everything within it falls under the same rules, instead of being part of a secret subcategory that is not explained anywhere within the current core rules.