N18 Can regular gangers buy special ammo from trading post?

[Lunarcruiser]

You are saying that the weapons tables are full of headings and subheadings? Would one messy index if you created it with these guidelines, and not at all how I was taught to use them. GW should publish their own grammar book so people could understand what they are writing in their rules.

The heading and sub heading format that GW used is the one that everyone uses. I even provided a worked through example. It's not messy it puts all the related info, like the Combat shotgun and all it's ammo, in one place. It is standard practice on tables and indexes.
Why would GW need to produce a grammar book when they used standard grammar?

We should really leave this point now.

 

[MusingWarboss]

I see the argument for treating ammo as weapons (after all there are two columns on the house lists--weapons and wargear) and if the ammo isn't on a ganger's house list then they can't use it. You could say that is all part of the flavor of the different gangs and that seems like a reasonable stance.

Looking at some of the previous posts though it seems like the crux of what people are getting at is “my Ganger can’t get additional weapons from the Trading Post but it already can buy some weapons that also appear on the Trading Post so why can’t it buy more of that weapon from the Trading Post!”

Answer: because your fighter can’t buy weapons from the Trading Post!! That should mean you can’t be gifted them or any additional bonus ammo they might be capable of firing, via the stash either - otherwise why bother with the restriction at all??

They’ve ditched the “not until after game one” restriction for brutes etc so why keep one for house fighter lists.

I really do think that they intend for the Gangers and Juves to be just your henchmen and unless they get lucky and survive long enough to become Champions they don’t get fancy stuff.

Stuff bought from the trading post takes a post battle action to acquire. Thus you need to be able to send someone to get it.

Only the rare and illegal items, eveything else can be done without sending a fighter - otherwise you’d never be able to do some stuff at all.

 

[Sump Thing]

We should really leave this point now.

Yes, lets. I just leave here a few links about Information tables, Headings and Subheadings so no one will flunk their essay because they used yaktribe as a reference.

Ps. and in tables we are discussing, it's called indentation, not heading or subheading. So don't blame us when you get F

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Yes, lets. I just leave here a few links about Information tables, Headings and Subheadings so no one will flunk their essay because they used yaktribe as a reference.

Ps. and in tables we are discussing, it's called indentation, not heading or subheading. So don't blame us when you get F

A light Wikipedia page? Really?

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Looking at some of the previous posts though it seems like the crux of what people are getting at is “my Ganger can’t get additional weapons from the Trading Post but it already can buy some weapons that also appear on the Trading Post so why can’t it buy more of that weapon from the Trading Post!”

Answer: because your fighter can’t buy weapons from the Trading Post!! That should mean you can’t be gifted them or any additional bonus ammo they might be capable of firing, via the stash either - otherwise why bother with the restriction at all??

They’ve ditched the “not until after game one” restriction for brutes etc so why keep one for house fighter lists.

I really do think that they intend for the Gangers and Juves to be just your henchmen and unless they get lucky and survive long enough to become Champions they don’t get fancy stuff.


Only the rare and illegal items, eveything else can be done without sending a fighter - otherwise you’d never be able to do some stuff at all.

Ammo are not weapons. Just try throwing the bullets that will work...

 

[Sump Thing]

A light Wikipedia page? Really?

If you have the app, you should be able to use the dark mode

 

[MusingWarboss]

Ammo are not weapons. Just try throwing the bullets that will work...

Yeah we get that. That’s not the point, the point is that they’re listed under the weapons that use them, and certain fighters can’t access weapons (and therefore any other ammo for them) from the Trading Post.

If you’re suddenly going to allow that then there’s no restrictions at all.

You can’t point to obsolete editions from 2017-18-19 or even 1995 because all that was nullified in 2020 with the individual fighter lists and they make no distinction between weapons and the ammo for them.

Again, just because a fighter can buy a gun from their list doesn’t mean they get free access to the trading post!

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Yeah we get that. That’s not the point, the point is that they’re listed under the weapons that use them, and certain fighters can’t access weapons (and therefore any other ammo for them) from the Trading Post.

The ammo is listed adjacent to the weapon not as a weapon. Because it uses the phrasing "+xx" credits it states it is a additional to the weapon and not the weapon itself and a separate purchase.
The + symbol is important. It defined it as a distinct item. Once you have the base gun you can then add distinct items to them just like weapon accessories like hotshot packs.

I was not using old renditions of the rules to make my points I was using the Core Book.
It's all on the format of the table. Basic mathematics grammar backs me up.
The Orlock gunner gets a combat shotgun. There is no Orlock Combat shotgun just a generic one.

And as you agreed in your first sentence ammunition is not a weapon. Gangers and juves are limited to their house lists "weapon choices" from the trade post. It says nothing about limited to their "ammo choices"

 

[MusingWarboss]

And as you agreed in your first sentence ammunition is not a weapon. Gangers and juves are limited to their house lists "weapon choices" from the trade post. It says nothing about limited to their "ammo choices"

That’s because they make no distinction between ammo and the weapon it uses, it’s all under the “Weapons” category which certain fighters can’t access.

The format of the table is irrelevant, the table is in the weapons section, which is prohibited for certain fighters. I’m not sure how much more that can be pointed out, you seem to still be going on the idea that because you have a certain gun you then have a given right to ignore the restrictions of the fighter types to access fancy ammo for it.

I said in an earlier post, Orlock Champions have in their list a wider array of extra ammo for their shotgun, the Ganger just has the basic shells. That is intentional. The Champion has no restrictions and can access further fancy ammo, the Ganger can’t.

Again, just because they’ve granted you access to a certain gun in your house list doesn’t mean you have free rein to raid the entire weapons section.

What you’re describing sounds incredibly rules lawyerish and if I’m honest, a bit cheaty. It sounds like you’re trying to justify a loophole to access items your fighter shouldn’t.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

That’s because they make no distinction between ammo and the weapon it uses, it’s all under the “Weapons” category which certain fighters can’t access.

The table makes distinctions between the gun and each individual line of ammunition. The gun has one cost and each ammunition has a separate cost under a different line. That directly states they are separate.

The format of the table is irrelevant, the table is in the weapons section, which is prohibited for certain fighters. I’m not sure how much more that can be pointed out, you seem to still be going on the idea that because you have a certain gun you then have a given right to ignore the restrictions of the fighter types to access fancy ammo for it.

If the table on the weapons section is prohibited then the profiles for the weapons allowed would be included in the individual fighters entries like any dramatic persona. It's a common table for common use

I said in an earlier post, Orlock Champions have in their list a wider array of extra ammo for their shotgun, the Ganger just has the basic shells. That is intentional. The Champion has no restrictions and can access further fancy ammo, the Ganger can’t.

The champion has no restrictions on Weapon choices. Until they build a gun entirely composed of bullets Ammo is not a weapons choice.

What you’re describing sounds incredibly rules lawyerish and if I’m honest, a bit cheaty. It sounds like you’re trying to justify a loophole to access items your fighter shouldn’t.

What I describe is the Rules as Written. As a community forum we can speculate on the intention but as we did not write the rules we only speculate.

The trade post rules also stated the house weapon lists are the common weapons and equipment the gang has access to while the Trade Post represents whatever the gang can get thier hands on.

 

[MusingWarboss]

The gun has one cost and each ammunition has a separate cost under a different line. That directly states they are separate.

They have a separate profile because their abilities are different.

If the table on the weapons section is prohibited then the profiles for the weapons allowed would be included in the individual fighters entries like any dramatic persona. It's a common table for common use

All the weapons included in the books are listed at the back of the books. Dramatis Persone are different because they often have a unique gun so no point putting it in a list when it could exist on their card.

Ammo is not a weapons choice.

No, it’s an upgrade to a weapon, included in the weapons list. If you can’t access the weapons list - no upgrades!!

I honestly can’t believe you can’t grasp this yet.

What I describe is the Rules as Written. As a community forum we can speculate on the intention but as we did not write the rules we only speculate.

Then please list the page number where it says that a fighter can access Ammo regardless of weapon restrictions.

 

[HugeSamples]

I think things are getting a bit heated here...and this is a bit of a tricky topic.

I've been thumbing through the core rulebook and "house of" books that I own (delaque and escher), and I'm starting to lean towards rules as written gangers/juves/specialists don't get access to ammo not present on their house list.

I also feel that gangs written before the "house of" books are approaching unplayable in the current system. Will they ever get a revision? Probably not.

I do feel that rules as intended that ammo was probably supposed to be wargear, as the range of models--leaders and champs--that can use ammo are so narrow and unlikely to do so as they will be equipped with better guns.

Unfortunately, if this is the case, then grenade launchers on specialists are a bit weaker as they usually have pretty narrow access to grenade launcher ammo. It further pushes autoguns to being inferior to lasguns--the upgrades for lasguns are definitely wargear. Shotguns go from a nice, scaling weapon to pretty meh as gangers usually only have base ammo access.

I'm aware of the paradigm shift from gangers/juves/specialists being the core of gangs to faceless henchman that are just kind of there (I personally don't like this change from oldmunda, but here we are).

However, as I alluded to before, we're free to change anything we don't like as long as they playgroup/arbiter agrees. Therefore, regardless of what the actual rule is, I don't think it really matters that much. Necromunda isn't a competitive game, nor is it a "kill team" type game where you're trying to min/max a list. You could certainly play it that way, but I feel it will ultimately be unfun that way.

To me Necromunda about watching your gang progress and creating combos and synergies with weapons and skills. I feel that putting barriers up from doing "cool things" is a bit antithetical to the spirit of what Necromunda is/was/supposed to be.