HI all , I've been having a hard time of late with 3 corpse grinder lists in the local meta . The masks are making it near impossible to hit them and now my Goliath gang been smashed to the point of a Forge boss a Stimmer and 2x forgies . The arbitrator is happy for me to build a new list which I am doing but is it a chad moove to go heavy on flamers and indirect frag ? ? I was thinking of Flamer / Brute Cleaver boss , Stimmer with assault grenade frags , a champ with flamer and frags and as many bullies as I can get with hand flamer and frags . I know its a douche list idea but when 3 of the 6 people in the meta are CGC do I have a choice . Any advice of help would be awesome thanks.
N18 CGC counters
- Thread starter Arron
- Start date
Goliath tend to have a bit of difficulty with CG due to their low Willpower. With half your group running CG, I don't feel like anything you do with your gang is going to be overkill; it sounds like you're already playing with a group of Thunder Chads. Go low and kick them in the junk whenever you have a chance to do so.
In your position, I'd probably want to run a lot of blasts and templates; 3 Grenade Launchers and a couple of Combat Shotguns. Maybe even consider the Missile Launcher on the Tyrant? Skip the Flamers; they're hideously overpriced, especially when you can upgrade a Combat Shotgun after your first match to do the same thing, better, for less. Be ready to sacrifice a couple of Juves as speedbumps and position your Stimmer and Tyrant (if equipped for CC) to make countercharges.
Are you committed to sticking with Goliaths?
Everyone else: Share your best starting CGC-slayer list, the beardier, the better.
In your position, I'd probably want to run a lot of blasts and templates; 3 Grenade Launchers and a couple of Combat Shotguns. Maybe even consider the Missile Launcher on the Tyrant? Skip the Flamers; they're hideously overpriced, especially when you can upgrade a Combat Shotgun after your first match to do the same thing, better, for less. Be ready to sacrifice a couple of Juves as speedbumps and position your Stimmer and Tyrant (if equipped for CC) to make countercharges.
Are you committed to sticking with Goliaths?
Everyone else: Share your best starting CGC-slayer list, the beardier, the better.
You mentioned you are Goliath's so I will go from there.
The musclebound tank brains do suffer from poor willpower which is a problem with charging Skinner's and higher and shooting Cutters and butchers.
Your Goliath's have good cool which can help you shoot at further targets, like a sacrificial initiate in the way of a further away cutter.
Let's look at your opponents fighters and gang to start with. Firstly cult composition. They must have equal or more initiates to skinners, a max of three champions and one leader. Other gangs can skip the weaker juves but corpse grinders must take them and in numbers too.
Initiates have the weakest mask in that you can shoot and charge them freely. They also infiltrate so bunch of initiates up front can quickly get smashed by your gang and trigger bottle tests for the rest so the skinners and cutters may bottle with thier average cool.
Once the other fighters get into combat which can be scarily fast via the corpse grinders cult icon and overseer they can dismember you readily.
Your combat abilities in melee once you pass those will tests, will xp upgrades are cheap, is formidable so counter charging the isolated corpse grinder that just eviscerated that bully you placed in front of your guys can work. However unlike every other gang in the game hungry hungry hippos not only equal your melee skill they often out class it.
Corpse grinders, unless they do inventive builds with initiates with trade post weapons, are a one trick pony. Albeit a effective blood drenched chain cleaver wielding one. Melee, melee and more melee. Goliath's however are not. You have other options. Contrary to the iconic renderiser and other melee options available to you Goliaths are not bad at shooting. Not Van Saar superb but not awful. Compared to the Hungry hungry hippos you are actually pretty great. To bypass the masks protection the best way to do that is Templates and Blast. And you have both on your list and officially model boxes options as well before you get any upgrade sets. Template weapons can not one bit about the masks and you have Combat Shotguns, flamers too but the shotguns are cheaper and more effective in general in my opinion, with fire storm ammo they pack even greater punch. They are best used for when you are close which is not ideal but they will eventually close anyway in some form and it is good to have options in that eventuality.
Blast however is the Hungry Hungry hippo hunters best friend. Grenade launchers are great, get smoke grenades to help reload (when reloading a multi ammo weapon you use any profile you have so the smoke grenades 4+ and you reload all of them), should you make the direct hit you can catch any opponents nearby. Also this is more important you can target the not terrifying floor 1mm in front of that butcher. Yes you get a -2 penalty but you can Aim and if you have the right telescopic sight you over come that. Should you miss it can still scatter and may hit anyway.
You also have the Missile launcher on your list for added range and strength of your shots and a bigger blast too.
Once you get some willpower upgrades shooting becomes easier. I find my gangers get the willpower upgrade a lot. Your bruiser have access to the bolter which is perfectly good at taking down opponents and can be given gunk bolts which slow those nippy cannibals down.
The musclebound tank brains do suffer from poor willpower which is a problem with charging Skinner's and higher and shooting Cutters and butchers.
Your Goliath's have good cool which can help you shoot at further targets, like a sacrificial initiate in the way of a further away cutter.
Let's look at your opponents fighters and gang to start with. Firstly cult composition. They must have equal or more initiates to skinners, a max of three champions and one leader. Other gangs can skip the weaker juves but corpse grinders must take them and in numbers too.
Initiates have the weakest mask in that you can shoot and charge them freely. They also infiltrate so bunch of initiates up front can quickly get smashed by your gang and trigger bottle tests for the rest so the skinners and cutters may bottle with thier average cool.
Once the other fighters get into combat which can be scarily fast via the corpse grinders cult icon and overseer they can dismember you readily.
Your combat abilities in melee once you pass those will tests, will xp upgrades are cheap, is formidable so counter charging the isolated corpse grinder that just eviscerated that bully you placed in front of your guys can work. However unlike every other gang in the game hungry hungry hippos not only equal your melee skill they often out class it.
Corpse grinders, unless they do inventive builds with initiates with trade post weapons, are a one trick pony. Albeit a effective blood drenched chain cleaver wielding one. Melee, melee and more melee. Goliath's however are not. You have other options. Contrary to the iconic renderiser and other melee options available to you Goliaths are not bad at shooting. Not Van Saar superb but not awful. Compared to the Hungry hungry hippos you are actually pretty great. To bypass the masks protection the best way to do that is Templates and Blast. And you have both on your list and officially model boxes options as well before you get any upgrade sets. Template weapons can not one bit about the masks and you have Combat Shotguns, flamers too but the shotguns are cheaper and more effective in general in my opinion, with fire storm ammo they pack even greater punch. They are best used for when you are close which is not ideal but they will eventually close anyway in some form and it is good to have options in that eventuality.
Blast however is the Hungry Hungry hippo hunters best friend. Grenade launchers are great, get smoke grenades to help reload (when reloading a multi ammo weapon you use any profile you have so the smoke grenades 4+ and you reload all of them), should you make the direct hit you can catch any opponents nearby. Also this is more important you can target the not terrifying floor 1mm in front of that butcher. Yes you get a -2 penalty but you can Aim and if you have the right telescopic sight you over come that. Should you miss it can still scatter and may hit anyway.
You also have the Missile launcher on your list for added range and strength of your shots and a bigger blast too.
Once you get some willpower upgrades shooting becomes easier. I find my gangers get the willpower upgrade a lot. Your bruiser have access to the bolter which is perfectly good at taking down opponents and can be given gunk bolts which slow those nippy cannibals down.
Whoa wall of text.
Maybe another one.
Look at your fighters closely.
In general terms there are a few genesmithing options that can boost your will power. That's a avenue to explore as it will help you shoot the Hungry Hungry hippos directly better.
Also you are generally Tougher than your corpse grinders opponents. Should you survive the charge you can beat them in attrition.
Given that shooting is your friend against corpse grinders forgeborn and stimmers may not be your best bet. The forgeborn options are short ranged on a fragile fighter and not blast and the strimmer is really a fellow melee monster it is really intensive to get he grenade launcher to work well on them and it ignores the melee rules baked into that fighter. Both options are expensive as well.
Go grenade launchers, combat shotguns and missile launchers all the way. Any melee weapon should be consider a nice back up but not initially required. A unarmed strike at S4 is threatening enough to corpse grinders with their average Toughness to start with. Expensive melee weapons take up the budget that should be spent on grenade launchers and combat shotguns. You can get the power hammers later.
In case you missed my love of the grenade launcher... there is another tactic that works well with it apart from the humble frag grenade. Corpse grinders have a universal meh initiative of 4+. That makes them quite vulnerable to the Flash effect of the Photon flash grenade. If they fail the initiative test they lose Thier next activation so no charging, no catapulting cutters across via the cult icon amd overseer. Oh and it is Blast 5" as well. If they lose Thier next activation that's a extra turn that's another turn to Frag them to death.
With less incoming fire to protect against smoke grenades have less use. If you are only facing Hungry Hungry hippos consider the Stun rounds instead. You still get 4+ ammo roll to help reloading but no short ranged penalty, a bit of AP Rapid fire and most importantly concussion. For only 15 credits (Goliath discount) Should you pass your willpower test to shoot them and hit you have a meh chance of actually sounding them (5+ on most 6+on Butchers) but regardless of that they now suffer a 2 penalty to any initiative test this round. Like your mates Photon flash grenade round next shot. I have managed to disable a Butcher and two nearby Cutters waiting for a chance to cult icon there way across the board for eight consecutive rounds of a game with a single Unborn Protogoliath Forge Boss with Fast Shot a single will power upgrade and his grenade launcher with Stun rounds and Flash grenades. A 200 credit model neutralised over 600 points of Corpse grinders nastiness by himself.
Maybe another one.
Look at your fighters closely.
In general terms there are a few genesmithing options that can boost your will power. That's a avenue to explore as it will help you shoot the Hungry Hungry hippos directly better.
Also you are generally Tougher than your corpse grinders opponents. Should you survive the charge you can beat them in attrition.
Given that shooting is your friend against corpse grinders forgeborn and stimmers may not be your best bet. The forgeborn options are short ranged on a fragile fighter and not blast and the strimmer is really a fellow melee monster it is really intensive to get he grenade launcher to work well on them and it ignores the melee rules baked into that fighter. Both options are expensive as well.
Go grenade launchers, combat shotguns and missile launchers all the way. Any melee weapon should be consider a nice back up but not initially required. A unarmed strike at S4 is threatening enough to corpse grinders with their average Toughness to start with. Expensive melee weapons take up the budget that should be spent on grenade launchers and combat shotguns. You can get the power hammers later.
In case you missed my love of the grenade launcher... there is another tactic that works well with it apart from the humble frag grenade. Corpse grinders have a universal meh initiative of 4+. That makes them quite vulnerable to the Flash effect of the Photon flash grenade. If they fail the initiative test they lose Thier next activation so no charging, no catapulting cutters across via the cult icon amd overseer. Oh and it is Blast 5" as well. If they lose Thier next activation that's a extra turn that's another turn to Frag them to death.
With less incoming fire to protect against smoke grenades have less use. If you are only facing Hungry Hungry hippos consider the Stun rounds instead. You still get 4+ ammo roll to help reloading but no short ranged penalty, a bit of AP Rapid fire and most importantly concussion. For only 15 credits (Goliath discount) Should you pass your willpower test to shoot them and hit you have a meh chance of actually sounding them (5+ on most 6+on Butchers) but regardless of that they now suffer a 2 penalty to any initiative test this round. Like your mates Photon flash grenade round next shot. I have managed to disable a Butcher and two nearby Cutters waiting for a chance to cult icon there way across the board for eight consecutive rounds of a game with a single Unborn Protogoliath Forge Boss with Fast Shot a single will power upgrade and his grenade launcher with Stun rounds and Flash grenades. A 200 credit model neutralised over 600 points of Corpse grinders nastiness by himself.
So i've messed about with the books and calculator today and got a list idea \\
350 pts TYRANT , flamer , frag grenades , furnace plates
Natborn tyrants own +1 T +1 W and Ironman and Hurl skills .
230 pts F BOSS , hand flamer , brute cleaver , frag grenades , furnace plates
Bullcharge and Walk it off skills
230 pts STIMMER , paired pulverisers , frag grenades , furnace plates , stim slug stash
Unstopable and Hurl skills
95 pts BRUISER , 2h hammer , furnace plates
Crushing Blow skill
230 pts BRUISER , melta gun , smoke grenades, furnace plates
Natborn prime specimen +1 BS
50 pts Forgeborn , stub gun , fighting knife
50 pts Forgeborn ,stub gun , fighting knife
7 fighters for 1235 pts so I have 15 to spare at start , I went with forgeborn over bullies for the promotion path to get another stimmer to take the paired assault grenade launchers for even more frag after a few games. Kinda got the rule of cool vibe going on aswell.
Thoughts ? am i on the right track with the frag and smoke to keep the cult pinned until i close on them ? then use templates to overcome masks
350 pts TYRANT , flamer , frag grenades , furnace plates
Natborn tyrants own +1 T +1 W and Ironman and Hurl skills .
230 pts F BOSS , hand flamer , brute cleaver , frag grenades , furnace plates
Bullcharge and Walk it off skills
230 pts STIMMER , paired pulverisers , frag grenades , furnace plates , stim slug stash
Unstopable and Hurl skills
95 pts BRUISER , 2h hammer , furnace plates
Crushing Blow skill
230 pts BRUISER , melta gun , smoke grenades, furnace plates
Natborn prime specimen +1 BS
50 pts Forgeborn , stub gun , fighting knife
50 pts Forgeborn ,stub gun , fighting knife
7 fighters for 1235 pts so I have 15 to spare at start , I went with forgeborn over bullies for the promotion path to get another stimmer to take the paired assault grenade launchers for even more frag after a few games. Kinda got the rule of cool vibe going on aswell.
Thoughts ? am i on the right track with the frag and smoke to keep the cult pinned until i close on them ? then use templates to overcome masks
Smoke grenades don't pin the opponent. They basically only provide cover which will protect you from incoming fire and block your opponent from being shot.
You state you are opposed by Corpse grinders. You face very little incoming fire and really need to keep shooting at them so skip the thrown smoke grenades.
Your twin hammer bruiser can't take a skill to start.
It takes a absurd amount of xp to upgrade any prospect in any gang to either form of champions it literally runs up to 100xp or more, and give them even vaguely equivalent statistics. You don't replace thier previous statistics with the new champions. It is just far far more efficient to just buy a new champion. If you are running many campaigns and keep carrying over the forge born it can work and it is good narrative play but it is just not possible to do in a single campaign.
While setting corpse grinders on fire works flamers are expensive and corpse grinders with the bonus to saves their masks give and a armoured undersuit can with a hazard suit actually reach the 4+ armour save mark while ignoring blaze. For the 140 credits you spend on a flamer you can get a 60 credit combat shotgun with 30 credit Firestorm ammo, and shatter shells for 15 with 35 credits saved for armour or putting towards another fighter. You end up with a gun that has two template profile one basically equivalent to a heavy flamer without unwieldy
the other with Scattershot so you roll D6 times to wound, your S4 D2 Rapid fire knockback normal rounds and your shatter shells give it a 18" frag grenade option with a bit of Ap as well.
If the Limited trait puts you off that only applies when you run out of ammo for that profile which should not happen that often and you can get a Bullet Merchant hanger on to make special ammo acquisition Common and change Limited to Scarce.
The meltagun on your specialist can hit very hard and as Natural born have a average will of 7+ but beware it's short range to use it the corpse grinders will be awful close and should it jam you are left with nothing to defend your self with for the rest of the game. Get a melta later start off with a cheaper more utilitarian grenade launcher. Nothing is stopping you from giving both to the bruiser later.
You state you are opposed by Corpse grinders. You face very little incoming fire and really need to keep shooting at them so skip the thrown smoke grenades.
Your twin hammer bruiser can't take a skill to start.
It takes a absurd amount of xp to upgrade any prospect in any gang to either form of champions it literally runs up to 100xp or more, and give them even vaguely equivalent statistics. You don't replace thier previous statistics with the new champions. It is just far far more efficient to just buy a new champion. If you are running many campaigns and keep carrying over the forge born it can work and it is good narrative play but it is just not possible to do in a single campaign.
While setting corpse grinders on fire works flamers are expensive and corpse grinders with the bonus to saves their masks give and a armoured undersuit can with a hazard suit actually reach the 4+ armour save mark while ignoring blaze. For the 140 credits you spend on a flamer you can get a 60 credit combat shotgun with 30 credit Firestorm ammo, and shatter shells for 15 with 35 credits saved for armour or putting towards another fighter. You end up with a gun that has two template profile one basically equivalent to a heavy flamer without unwieldy
the other with Scattershot so you roll D6 times to wound, your S4 D2 Rapid fire knockback normal rounds and your shatter shells give it a 18" frag grenade option with a bit of Ap as well.If the Limited trait puts you off that only applies when you run out of ammo for that profile which should not happen that often and you can get a Bullet Merchant hanger on to make special ammo acquisition Common and change Limited to Scarce.
The meltagun on your specialist can hit very hard and as Natural born have a average will of 7+ but beware it's short range to use it the corpse grinders will be awful close and should it jam you are left with nothing to defend your self with for the rest of the game. Get a melta later start off with a cheaper more utilitarian grenade launcher. Nothing is stopping you from giving both to the bruiser later.
Thanks a tonne Luna , currently we are going to be running an ongoing campaign . Underhive first campaign , then into Ashwastes and if people are still keen and we haven't lost too many players back into hive style play . The arbitrator has 3d printed a set of hex tiles to make a campaign map with hives , outposts and roads as well as some " perhaps DUNE inspired " environmental encounters . As of this afternoon it looks like we will be starting with a group of 12 gangs and about 1/3 of those are CGC and I know of 2 Vans' gangs as well so I will be getting shot to pieces alot and chopped up , but its all dependant on the dice and luck . Charges fail , guns jam and people get knocked off walkways 
A 1/3 being Corpse grinders is pretty massive.
Perpetual and ongoing campaigns tend to run out of steam. Once your fighters get the arms and armour you want there soon runs out of things to develop them and you get bored. Especially when you end up with enough income to buy a new gang after every game. Once every one is a super human it gets a bit dull.
I posted my previous comments on the presumption that it was a corpse grinder specific thread. Many of the CGC counters will be less required for Van Saar play while some others, like my combat shotgun post, still work.
If you would like another option on Goliaths verses another gang I would suggest starting a separate thread. CGC, well thier pesky masks, require a very specialised approach that can leave you, especially at the start, rather vulnerable to other play styles.
Perpetual and ongoing campaigns tend to run out of steam. Once your fighters get the arms and armour you want there soon runs out of things to develop them and you get bored. Especially when you end up with enough income to buy a new gang after every game. Once every one is a super human it gets a bit dull.
I posted my previous comments on the presumption that it was a corpse grinder specific thread. Many of the CGC counters will be less required for Van Saar play while some others, like my combat shotgun post, still work.
If you would like another option on Goliaths verses another gang I would suggest starting a separate thread. CGC, well thier pesky masks, require a very specialised approach that can leave you, especially at the start, rather vulnerable to other play styles.
In general, it's important to remember that Goliaths aren't a fully-focused close combat gang. That's what CGC and Ogryns do. Goliath shooting ability is about average and they have good Gun options with Boltguns, Combat Shotguns and Grenade Launchers. Their extra toughness means that they can do just fine in a gunfight. Definitely take a Stimmer, but other than that, start with a focus on ranged combat. Take Nerves of Steel and lots of Toughness upgrades.
With you mentionIng multiple CGC and VS gangs in your group, it sounds like it's going to be a competitive, cutthroat campaign. You can prosper by outshooting the melee gangs and outmeleeing the shooting gangs. Goliaths are well set up to do just that.
With you mentionIng multiple CGC and VS gangs in your group, it sounds like it's going to be a competitive, cutthroat campaign. You can prosper by outshooting the melee gangs and outmeleeing the shooting gangs. Goliaths are well set up to do just that.
I think ill still use the same basic list just swap the forgeborn to bullys with stub gun & cleavers ,swap the 2h hammer guy to combat shotgun , same with the melta gun to grenade launcher drop the smoke grenades out gets a bit more shooting in the list and a few more bodies to kit up later . So I caught up with the Arbi today and picked his brain , he wants to do a N17 campaign into a Dark Uprising into Ashwastes culminating in a massive elimination weekend to decimate gangs back to a level to start a Cinderak campaign . I think its a bit of a lofty target as like you have pointed out people get over being superhuman and just butting heads but we will see how it goes . I didn't even know that rolling from one expansion into another was dooable but he seem confident . Ill post picks and updates when we kick off and pics of my gang when I finish modelling/ converting and painting . Cheers to everyone who has given me tips and tricks to help with the CGC , Vansar I will just pin with grenades and then face roll them with brute cleavers . Escher no problem with them , Orlock pin then chop , Ashwaste nomads ive never faced before so that one will be interesting but they look kinda sneaky bois . Should be a fun first few rounds of campaign all the same .
Ash nomad are a shooter gang primarily but with a little melee power. They are also sneaky but inba different way to delaque. Thier big thing is Shock everywhere. Normally shock is relatively rare but if a whole gang has it, relatively cheaply as well you will have a lot more 6s so auto wounds happen a lot. They even have a machine gun with it.
You mentioned a bunch of shooting gangs or at least shooting capable ones. (All the other gangs you mentioned) As you progress I would revisit getting smoke grenades later after a few games to close off firing lines. I would invest in your Hungry Hungry hippos defences first because it can go badly wrong for your gang early on without them and many of the other tools, combat shotgun grenade launchers etc are useful against other foes as well.
Van Saar don't even need brute cleavers to beat in melee you can use you first but Orlock Esher and ash Nomads are more of a melee threat so will need some melee punch. Esher can quite easily out class you in melee if you let them Death Maidens are super nasty and fast.
You mentioned a bunch of shooting gangs or at least shooting capable ones. (All the other gangs you mentioned) As you progress I would revisit getting smoke grenades later after a few games to close off firing lines. I would invest in your Hungry Hungry hippos defences first because it can go badly wrong for your gang early on without them and many of the other tools, combat shotgun grenade launchers etc are useful against other foes as well.
Van Saar don't even need brute cleavers to beat in melee you can use you first but Orlock Esher and ash Nomads are more of a melee threat so will need some melee punch. Esher can quite easily out class you in melee if you let them Death Maidens are super nasty and fast.
You mentioned Ash wastes so vehicles and bikes.
All the wide stance Goliath's fit quite well on the GW Ork warbike with only a little remodeling on one arm to hold the handle bar.
Ogryns aren't a close combat gang. They just want love and hugs....
I jest.
The campaign structure is definitely ambitious, but it sounds pretty cool. As long as you're all a bit flexible, it can work out well. Everyone has a plan before the dice start rolling...
Lunarcruiser made a really good point about focusing on your shooting at the start. With S/T at 4 (or more) you have an advantage in melee against most opponents, even barehanded. Don't be shy about skipping some melee weapons at the start in favor of more/better guns and an extra body or two. If you have a choice between a knife today or a chain axe tomorrow, wait and take the chain axe.
Lunarcruiser made a really good point about focusing on your shooting at the start. With S/T at 4 (or more) you have an advantage in melee against most opponents, even barehanded. Don't be shy about skipping some melee weapons at the start in favor of more/better guns and an extra body or two. If you have a choice between a knife today or a chain axe tomorrow, wait and take the chain axe.
- Hand thrown frag grenades are overpriced.
- Decent options would be Combat shotguns -> rush Firestorm ammo on trading post.
- Grenade Launchers are great. If you can get photon grenades, then even better. Shoot the ground after aiming, better to shoot with -1 to hit rather than not shoot at all.
- Its pretty much impossible to melee CGC as goliath unless you get some WIL upgrades and even then it is a very risky proposition. Stay away and try to get as many shots as possible.
quick campaign update guys 4 weeks in and i'm 3 wins 1 loss so far , 1 win against CGC and my loss against CGC . Loss could have been a win but the dice gods were very angry at me that game . After an opinion also , is it worth hiring a DP when I have enough credits to help tip the balance against CGC I was thinking maybe Killfist to add some extra cc power or just hulk up some gangers with stims and armour ?
Dramatic persona don't improve. Your gang does.
Most dramatic persona are bounty hunters, hive scum or the line or house Agents. To keep using them you need to keep paying for them. Once you buy your gangers armour you always get to use it.
While many dramatic persona are cool having to keep paying for them is a drag. If your campaign gives you them for free, like the Law and Order campaign with some fudging or any of the Succession ones, then I go for them but otherwise they usually stay on the shelf unless I am running a outcast gang with them as leader
Most dramatic persona are bounty hunters, hive scum or the line or house Agents. To keep using them you need to keep paying for them. Once you buy your gangers armour you always get to use it.
While many dramatic persona are cool having to keep paying for them is a drag. If your campaign gives you them for free, like the Law and Order campaign with some fudging or any of the Succession ones, then I go for them but otherwise they usually stay on the shelf unless I am running a outcast gang with them as leader
There was a discussion in another thread on whether normal gangers/specialists could take trading post ammo. I think the general answer was no, if it's not on their house list. You might want to check with your arbiter.
If in doubt there is always Thread needle worms. No aiming around scary masks required...
