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N17 Chain swords... little help please.

Discussion in 'Rules, Mechanics & Skills' started by Vonvilkee, Jan 10, 2018.

  1. Vonvilkee

    Vonvilkee Gang Champion

    okay I'm excited about N17 and as the planned arbitrator of a future campaign 28mm changing some stuff.

    Looming for some feedback on my planned chain sword as compared to GW swords.

    My plan is (formatting fail from phone)

    Range engaged, no accuracy modifiers, fixed strength 4, ap -1, damage 1, rules (parry, melee, and whirling) 40 creds.

    Whirling will be a custom trait: each flesh wound inflicted is treated as two.

    Thoughts?
     
    pr01e likes this.
  2. FerociousBeast

    FerociousBeast Gang Champion
    Honored Tribesman

    Strength 4 is traditional for chainswords, but I’ve always thought they should be +1 Str. If I was going to house rule them that’s what I’d do.
     
    Vonvilkee likes this.
  3. pr01e

    pr01e Ganger

    outside of lifting it, you don't really leverage a ton of strength to use a chainsword, axe, chainsaw in general. the engine is doing all the strength work, so would someone with a huge physique leverage that strength as much for a chainsword as say a cleaver or a flail would ? also having it fixed gives str 3 CC fighters who suffer a spinal injury an option to remain competitive.

    as proposed it puts it in a nice place where it's less accurate than a sword, but does a bit more damage with a chance to maul someone's toughness down. 40 creds is a nice price point, compared to same-costing renderizer with str+2, same ap, 1 extra damage, and unwieldy
     
    timdp, Ben_S and Vonvilkee like this.
  4. Vonvilkee

    Vonvilkee Gang Champion

    That is what I was going for. I don't want it to be an auto but a nice choice in some niche situations.
     
  5. almic85

    almic85 Gang Champion

  6. Vonvilkee

    Vonvilkee Gang Champion

  7. Vonvilkee

    Vonvilkee Gang Champion

  8. Stoof

    Stoof Yakmarines 2nd Co. Word Priest
    Tribe Council Yak Comp 2nd Place

    It does look like "sword" in N17 covers both traditional and chain (but not power) swords. Could be an oversight on the Gor Half-Horn card of course.

    Hopefully the chainsword will end up with a proper profile of its own at some point in the future, but barring that I generally like your proposed stat line - with the possible exception of "whirling". I'm not sure how I feel about that one to be honest. It would depend on the price point. 40 seems ok, but I think 45 has a nicer feel to it if whirling is included.
     
    Vonvilkee and Ben_S like this.
  9. pr01e

    pr01e Ganger

    45 points is putting a chainsword basically 5 creds cheaper than a powersword and identical to a power hammer (granted its a goliath weapon currently), and that doesn't feel right to me..

    Mathematically it leaves the chainsword a bit wanting at 45 points, compared to a power hammer which gives you the same str usually (str+1), the same AP, but an extra Damage point, which is going to yield an extra injury die anyway (as well as kill multi-wound models in fewer hits). Granted not all houses have access to it, but they should still balance out. The 1D chainsword's whirling rule simply gets two flesh wound results when rolling 1, but rolling 2 injury dice is always going to be as good or better than that.

    Additionally its a power weapon, so it can't be parried by anything that's not Power, and it gets an additional 1 ap and d on 1/6 of it's swings. Making it 45 basically makes the power hammer/sword universally a better choice IMO, unless you have lost a point of str, or don't have 5 more creds/aren't goliath.
     
    #9 pr01e, Jan 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
    Vonvilkee, Ben_S and Stoof like this.
  10. Vonvilkee

    Vonvilkee Gang Champion

    Great discussion! Really appreciate it.

    I went with fixed strength mostly so you see it more on middling fighters not goliaths or anybody you plan on giving +1 S during the campaign. Whirling is a rule I plan on maybe using elsewhere, depends on GW pit slaves (buzz saw arms yay!) And bionic arms that end in chainsaws.

    I'm aiming for something a little better than d1 but not d2 for a shooty champ/ leader. Multiple attacks could easily result in wounds but 2 fleshwounds. Also gives a better way to put somebody out of action and would make multi engagements a little scarier.

    Champ outnumbered 2 to 1 inflicts a flesh wound and serious injury on one opponent. If t3 that opponent is effectively out even without the CDG. Aim is to be a cost effective back up fighter not a rip roaring charger.
     
    pr01e likes this.
  11. Fold

    Fold Gang Hero

    The only video representation of a chainsword I’ve seen does suggest the engine does the work. So S4 definitely feels right.

    I really like your whirring rule as well, good job.
     
    Vonvilkee likes this.
  12. almic85

    almic85 Gang Champion

    Not to be a kill joy on this (and I hate using this argument) but the chainsword in the last two iterations of 40k doesn’t give you any strength bonus at all (in fact it functioned the same as any other crappy hand weapon in one of them).

    I’m not saying that it’s right or good, but maybe the profile for a “basic sword” in the gangs of legend list is actually the profile for a chainsword and they have just buffed standard swords until they provide rules for both types?

    Edit: I thought i should add that the latest version of chainswords also doesn’t give you plus strength but does give you an extra attack. Maybe to differentiate it from the power hammer this is a better benefit. Power weapons get plus strength and chain weapons get plus attacks.
     
  13. Vonvilkee

    Vonvilkee Gang Champion


    Appreciate the counter argument, keeps things more middle line.

    My counter point would be plasma and any gangs of legend weapon with the same name in 40k strengths and damages don't match. Different scales of game play leads to a streamlining effect. Necromunda is far more granular and until 40k really went brigade level chain swords were different from swords.
     
  14. almic85

    almic85 Gang Champion

    Well reasoned.

    What about Strength as user, AP -1, Damage 1, Special Rules Parry, Melee, +1 Attack ?

    It would give it a different feel to power weapons with its own special benefit. Maybe bump it up to S4 if it is too underpowered.
     
  15. Vonvilkee

    Vonvilkee Gang Champion

    Intriguing... need to run some math but gut feeling with +1 attack it would be a go to for gangers... more attacks equals more chances at serious injury for CDG to put peeps out of action. Not sure I want that, I'm looking for something to help with putting peeps out when out numbered... in my campaign to get around the charge thing we increased engagement to the one inch a la 40k. This has lead to a lot more on going combats and multiple engagements. I don't want to go full pulverize rule but do want something a little special.
     
  16. Kairae

    Kairae Ganger

    If you look at a Stiletto Sword and Power Sword what the ‘basic’ Sword actually looks like is probably:
    E, +0 to hit, S as user, -1 Save, Melee, Parry, 20 Creds

    Which compares well with a Flail:
    E, +1 to hit, S+1, -0 Save, Melee, Entangle, 20 Creds.

    Best as I can tell each +1/-1 stat costs 5 Creds on a CCW and Toxin is 15 and Parry is 15. But because it’s GW these aren’t necessarily constant across all equipment, but that seems the rough numbers.

    BTW Power seems to be the most overcosted CCW ability at 20-30 Creds. Although Versatile seems like a close second at 10creds for an ability that is strictly worse than an Autopistol.
     
  17. Vonvilkee

    Vonvilkee Gang Champion

    Power is good tho as it can't be parried by non power weapons. The extra damage with no save on a six to hit is gravy.

    As for versatile we ruled it to increase your engagement range to 3". Stealing from malifaux. Adds protection for shooters near her and let's get throw full attacks (stat line, can't use a second weapon unless also versatile) and abhors reaction strikes as she isn't in the enemy's engagement range. Models engaged I this way receive the optional action "close distance (double) move up to 3 inches then receive a close combat action" like a shorter charge.
     
    Cpt. Boriel likes this.
  18. Vonvilkee

    Vonvilkee Gang Champion

    Stupid phone... fixing post lost typos in screen size issues...

    Power is good tho as it can't be parried by non power weapons. The extra damage with no save on a six to hit is gravy.

    As for versatile we ruled it to increase your engagement range to 3". Stealing from malifaux. Adds protection for shooters near her and let's her throw full attacks (stat line, can't use a second weapon unless also versatile) and avoids reaction strikes as she isn't in the enemy's engagement range. Models engaged in this way receive the optional engaged action "close distance (double) move up to 3 inches then receive a close combat action" like a shorter charge.
     
  19. Kairae

    Kairae Ganger

    How many people have Swords / Parry? And the majority of the time I parry the Plasma/Bolt Pistol in preference to the CCW anyway.

    If Parry is ~15pts the ability to avoid being parried should be no more than ~15pts. Which would give something like this for a Powersword:

    E, +1 to hit, S+1, -2 Save, Dam 1, Melee, Parry, Power 50 Creds

    Which seems about as scary as a Powersword should be.

    My preferred solution for Versatile is: "Ranged Attacks with a Versatile weapon are resolved with WS and ignore cover penalities". Which makes them an ideal weapon for +1 WS gangers or ex-Juves for Escher and doesn't require funky new mechanics.
     
    #19 Kairae, Jan 14, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
    Vonvilkee likes this.
  20. Jacob Dryearth

    Jacob Dryearth Gang Champion

    I like whirling. For now I'll treat my chainswords as brute cleavers though.

    An alternative whirling could be: Re-roll failed wound rolls, and on a 5+ (or 4+, or equal or beat the defender toughness like Pulverize) the failed wound is converted to a flesh wound which the defender rolls to save against.

    Bad wording, but you get the idea.
     
    Vonvilkee likes this.
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