N18 Characters in Enforcer book

[Wasteland]

Happy new year, fellas!

So I finally bought as a huge Judge Dredd fan Complete case files #25, an Enforcer squad, Enforcer dice and the Enforcer book in December.
I still have to figure out how to build the squad but what I gleaned from a superficial reading was the very poor ballistic skill of a Hired Gun.

And here comes my question:
Why would anybody hire a model which is effectively a cripple?
Or is it one of GW's endless misprints (Facepalm)?

Thanks in advance to anybody who sheds light on this issue.

 

[Devilmixer]

what hired gun is it?

 

[Wasteland]

what hired gun is it?

Geez, now I have to actually stand up and fetch the book...
Can't you do this for me as you are way younger?
Hm, let's see...

P. 99 Jonny, Hive Scum, 125 bucks
Bionic eye in art and BS 6+.
Loves to throw knives... Yeah, he will puncture air a lot but won't hit a barn's door. Maybe the bionic eye is in disrepair...


Next candidate...

P. 98 Glen, Hive scum, 150 bucks
She intimidates me with her stare but her swordplay skills (WS5+) are as bad as mine.


Next cripple...

P.92 Vander, Hive scum, 145 bucks
Cocky guy and BS5+. Christ...


It won't end...

P. 91, Gor, Hive scum, 120 bucks
Fat like Baron Harkonnen and WS6+. I guess being flabby is a good excuse to suck.


Last disappointment...

P. 87 Estus, Hive scum, 130 bucks
BS5+ and an eyepatch. Fair enough. With only one eye you can't expect wonders.


I have an advice for all these guys:
Please retire and make room for proper enhancement talent like it is done in Blood Bowl.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Jonny Razor: This is a close combat fighter, don't waste time making ranged attacks with him!
Glen: You mean Gaen? This is a mediocre ranged fighter (with 2 wounds), keep her away from close combat!
Vander: You mean Vunder? This is a close combat fighter, don't waste time making ranged attacks with him!
Gor: You mean Cor? This is a short-range fighter, keep him away from close combat!

These are poor hive scum, don't understand why you expect space marines! They have relatively low cost compared to other fighters you can hire. These are not cripples, they have some exaggerated strengths and weaknesses compared to your bog standard average fighter (cawdor/chaos ganger stats). Why someone would pay for them? It is general consensus that any hired gun (regardless of hive scum, bounty hunter or strength/power) are all overpriced and not worth the credits. Maybe some situations allow you to hired them for free, in which case they are worth it from a narrative perspective, and that they're better than nothing, and they all serve some niche usage.

If you need to hire fighters with good WS and BS, check out Baertrum Arturos III, Yolanda Skorn, Kal Jericho, Slate Merdena, Vorgen Mortz and Vandoth.

As mentioned, we already have a bunch of special characters with good stats (WS & BS 2+ or 3+). GW wants to make a bunch of these characters, so if all of them have same type of good stats, they all become very similar or even identical. This is already the case for close combat weapons, where they added so much, many of them are identical (with different names) or same name (with different stats). So in order to make new unique characters, they must make WS and BS unbalanced, the result is several of the characters you mention. This is not easy to understand if you just read a single book with 10-15 characters. But if you get a fan compilation, you would see the multitude of characters we already got:

• Hangers-on: 23
  • Standard: 9
  • Outlaw: 5
  • Brutes: 9
• Pets: 13
• Alliance: 31
  • Guild: 19
  • Criminal: 12
• Hive scum: 14
  • Standard: 5
  • Outlaw: 9
• Bounty Hunters: 28
  • Standard: 24
  • Outlaw: 4

More than 100 fighter profiles for fighters outside your 'core' gang (leader, champs, gangers, juves). They can't all be BS and WS 3+! They need unique differences in characteristics, or they don't have any purpose.

 

[Wasteland]

Just checked the names. Vunder, Cor and Gaen are all correct.
I expected enhancement talent like BB Star Players and not useless employees. These guys are worse than standard gangers.
Yesterday I checked the FW page and none of them have models. That's good because nobody will be buying these guys.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Ok I see where you're coming from. Blood Bowl Star Players are as the name suggests stars. They are legendary players, usually superior to any of your standard players of the same type. Outlaw Hive Scum are... scum. They are low-life filth with a very high cost. Necromunda is not glorious and epic like blood bowl, it's an ugly, dirty and disgusting place.

 

[Wasteland]

Ok I see where you're coming from. Blood Bowl Star Players are as the name suggests stars. They are legendary players, usually superior to any of your standard players of the same type. Outlaw Hive Scum are... scum. They are low-life filth with a very high cost. Necromunda is not glorious and epic like blood bowl, it's an ugly, dirty and disgusting place.

Sure, but even scum should be able to fight. These guys seem to me that they collect bottles 24/7 and suddenly a gangers hires them to be used as cannon fodder in a turf war. Their cost is DRASTICALLY incorrect compared to what they bring to the table as you already wrote.
Why does this bother me? Well, GW hasn't improved upon their rules writing at all since release of N17 and relies on Necromunda fan boys like myself to correct all their mistakes. Honestly, it has become quite tiresome that these issues still exists.

 

[spafe]

P. 99 Jonny, Hive Scum, 125 bucks
Bionic eye in art and BS 6+.
Loves to throw knives... Yeah, he will puncture air a lot but won't hit a barn's door. Maybe the bionic eye is in disrepair...

But a WS of 2+ wih a good combat weapon, Attacks and Wounds.

P. 98 Glen, Hive scum, 150 bucks
She intimidates me with her stare but her swordplay skills (WS5+) are as bad as mine.

BS4+ though, with Nerves, and gunk bombs...

P.92 Vander, Hive scum, 145 bucks
Cocky guy and BS5+. Christ...

WS2+, and his pistols are mastercrafted with +2 to hit at short range... so even with a 5+ to hit, that becoming a 3+ with reroll isnt as bad at all. 2 wounds is also nice.

P. 91, Gor, Hive scum, 120 bucks
Fat like Baron Harkonnen and WS6+. I guess being flabby is a good excuse to suck.

BS4+ isnt that bad though, and with gunfighter (and more powerful rounds) he's not a high level character, but isnt bad as a low level fighter.

P. 87 Estus, Hive scum, 130 bucks
BS5+ and an eyepatch. Fair enough. With only one eye you can't expect wonders.

ws 4+ and 2 wounds, her ccw is also +1 to hit, and has toxin... again, low level character, but not terrible.

I think you expect too much. Considering they are mainly going to be used when you have underdog so not paying for them, they can be very handy for that. Yes they are not worth it if paying your hard stolen creds for them, but lets be honest, no hired gun of any sort (generic or named) is. These ones arn't useless though, when my gang goes outlaw I'll fully expect to cycle through a few of these as fun options when the udnerdog.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Sure, but even scum should be able to fight. These guys seem to me that they collect bottles 24/7 and suddenly a gangers hires them to be used as cannon fodder in a turf war. Their cost is DRASTICALLY incorrect compared to what they bring to the table as you already wrote.
Why does this bother me? Well, GW hasn't improved upon their rules writing at all since release of N17 and relies on Necromunda fan boys like myself to correct all their mistakes. Honestly, it has become quite tiresome that these issues still exists.

You are addressing 2 separate issues:
1) They are not able to fight.
2) They are over-priced.

Everybody agrees on nr 2). It has been discussed heavily for as long as we had guns for hire in new Necromunda. About nr 1), I feel you are cherrypicking. In every example you take a fighter which excell in melee OR ranged, and say they suck in the other. That's like saying MacGyver is dumb because he can't shoot a weapon.

We have mistakes and we have balancing issues. Nr 2 is clearly a balancing issue, no doubt about it! To say that a close combat fighter is only good for collecting bottles because the fighter can't shoot is a mistake on your part, not the game itself.

If you want to find actual mistakes, you can find numerous examples in your Book of Judgement. It is particularly bad. But the stats of these fighters are not it. You'll find a list here:

N18 - Collected Errors/Typos in The Book of Judgement

This is a post to document all the errors and typos in the Book of Judgement. It is not for discussing interpretations of rules, but actual typographical errors and rules that are incorrect or conflicting with previous publications. I will edit this post with each issue discovered and page...

yaktribe.games

 

[Wasteland]

@spafe:

Okay, maybe my initial response was too harsh but my gaming background is heavily influenced by BB and in that game star players are seldom one-dimensional like Mighty Zug who has exceptional strength but bad AG.
It seems to me the above mentioned scum are all conceptualized to suck in some specific area of combat which was a bit of a surprise to me.

 

[spafe]

my gaming background is heavily influenced by BB and in that game star players are seldom one-dimensional like Mighty Zug who has exceptional strength but bad AG.

Really? I've played a lot of BB although I do admit I have never really used star players. But from what Irecall when looking through them, they were mostly very hard hitters or very good ball players, but far less frequently both. And the 'stars' who were, well they are probable the equivelant of Kal jerico, or some of the other well rounded bounty hunters from other books.

The Stars of BB though, I do admit were pretty much always better value for money than HGs in Necro. In that regard you are compltly right, none of them are really 'efficient' choices.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Ok, I can give you some star player bottle collectors:

• Deeproot Strongbranch: Terrible player with only MA 2. It will take this player 7 turns to score a touchdown.
• Jordell Freshbreeze: Armour 7? This is same as a freakin goblin. Hardly worthy of a star player?
• Ramtut III: Ag 1, how is he supposed to pass or even pick up the ball?
• Scrappa Sorehead: Strength 2, can only beat up snotlings?

I'm guessing you play vampires? Cause they're the only ones who have a complete strong statline. And they suffer greatly for it by having Blood Lust.

 

[Wasteland]

Ok, I can give you some star player bottle collectors:

• Deeproot Strongbranch: Terrible player with only MA 2. It will take this player 7 turns to score a touchdown.
• Jordell Freshbreeze: Armour 7? This is same as a freakin goblin. Hardly worthy of a star player?
• Ramtut III: Ag 1, how is he supposed to pass or even pick up the ball?
• Scrappa Sorehead: Strength 2, can only beat up snotlings?

I'm guessing you play vampires? Cause they're the only ones who have a complete strong statline. And they suffer greatly for it by having Blood Lust.

You are wrong on all accounts but I have to admit that my description of being one-dimensional was not the smoothest one.
What I meant was that if you take a basic statline of a player in BB and promote him to star player status then you increase one or two stats and give him some extra skills.
This player is therefore above average and DOESN'T have any downsides.
The exception of this was in my example Mighty Zug who gains a couple of buffs but also suffers a decrease in AG.

And now to the scum in Necromunda. They get gear, skills and ALWAYS a handicap (see above). That's why I have referred to them as cripples and two of them have actually only one eye so I was correct in the end.

And now to your examples:

Treeman with move 2 is okay because that's the average move of the species. If he would have gotten the scum treatment he would have had move 1.
The same goes for the Elf (AV7), the mummy (AG1) and the others.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Can't argue with that, I see what you mean. All I can say is, Outlaw hive scum are not "stars". If using average stats with one or two points better WS or BS, they would ALL have WS/BS 3+/3+, 2+/3+, 3+/2+ or 2+/2+. That's not a lot of variety to share between all these characters. Their costs are also (relatively) much lower than the actual 'star' fighters, which you will find in the bounty hunter chapter. They bring the power, not hive scum.

 

[Wasteland]

Can't argue with that, I see what you mean. All I can say is, Outlaw hive scum are not "stars". If using average stats with one or two points better WS or BS, they would ALL have WS/BS 3+/3+, 2+/3+, 3+/2+ or 2+/2+. That's not a lot of variety to share between all these characters. Their costs are also (relatively) much lower than the actual 'star' fighters, which you will find in the bounty hunter chapter. They bring the power, not hive scum.

Yeah, I wasn't aware of this. Speaking of named special characters in Necromunda always reminds me of the good old times in the 90s.
Back then I played Redemptionists & Escher and both had access to powerful infamous persons like the priest guy which name I can't remember (not the comic guy) and of course Mad Donna.
I don't think any of these two had decreases in statlines but Mad Donna had a flavourful debuff as she couldn't consolidate after hth because she was busy mutilating her victim which led to multiple injuries in the after game phase.

So the trademark of scum is to have buffs & debuffs? This reminds me of the poor wretches in Darkest Dungeons which accumulate XP but will also become unhinged by the many gruesome horrors in the monster-infested areas.

I guess you will have to incorporate the debuff costs of the scum to finally get a sensible hiring cost for them like it is done for your gangers who suffer from permanent mental and physical injuries.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Hold on, now we have a lot more to discuss!

Injured fighters (permanent stat decrease) doesn't lower their cost! They keep their cost. And if you fix them with bionics, their cost increases instead.

Haven't thought about what hive scum's trademark is. All hired guns have the trademark of being overpriced. Most of them have random stats, skills and weapons mixed together. Some have unique weapons or ammo.

If you are a veteran like me and want to try out new necromunda, you'll have real problems to worry about, not hive scums, their buffs, debuffs and costs! Have a look at the new campaigns. You'll find 3 campaigns available in new Necromunda:

1) Dominion (vanilla)
2) Law & Misrule
3) Uprising

They all follow the blue-print of dominion campaign, with different mechanics and tweaks added on top. But I'm sure you remember underdog bonus? Income tax? Pretty steady amount of territories and income? All that is gone. Gangs start with 1 territory each. The winner gets +1 territory. Loser gains nothing. And no income tax remember? So the next game, the losing gang must lick their wounds, pay for replacements. The winner has doubled their income, buys new fighters, have a strong advantage for the next game. If you complain about hive scum, I'd like to see what you say about campaigns! And alliances have no effect on gang rating...

 

[Wasteland]

Hold on, now we have a lot more to discuss!

Injured fighters (permanent stat decrease) doesn't lower their cost! They keep their cost. And if you fix them with bionics, their cost increases instead.

Haven't thought about what hive scum's trademark is. All hired guns have the trademark of being overpriced. Most of them have random stats, skills and weapons mixed together. Some have unique weapons or ammo.

If you are a veteran like me and want to try out new necromunda, you'll have real problems to worry about, not hive scums, their buffs, debuffs and costs! Have a look at the new campaigns. You'll find 3 campaigns available in new Necromunda:

1) Dominion (vanilla)
2) Law & Misrule
3) Uprising

They all follow the blue-print of dominion campaign, with different mechanics and tweaks added on top. But I'm sure you remember underdog bonus? Income tax? Pretty steady amount of territories and income? All that is gone. Gangs start with 1 territory each. The winner gets +1 territory. Loser gains nothing. And no income tax remember? So the next game, the losing gang must lick their wounds, pay for replacements. The winner has doubled their income, buys new fighters, have a strong advantage for the next game. If you complain about hive scum, I'd like to see what you say about campaigns! And alliances have no effect on gang rating...

I am aware of this and have contributed to a lot of threads dealing with N17 quirks which makes the game hard to enjoy in the past.
Easy solution here is as always:
Implement house rules to guarantee a smooth game play which removes roadblocks.
One of the first things our group implemented was a reduction in a ganger's cost, if he suffered a permanent injury. It's logical and simple to do.

The different campaign systems are of no value to us as we play it in a very custom fashion.
Thanks to the Gang War books there are a ton of scenarios to be played. We make sure to play each of them at least once before any of the previous ones are repeated.
Why? Well, I remember painful moments from the 90s when nearly ALL scenarios were just Ambush, Rescue and maybe Heist. Rescue needed to be played because of the capture rules and Ambush was the way for the little gangs to annoy the big ones. Sure, we also played other stuff like Western pistol duel or the once in a lifetime opportunity for three gangs to battle actual Chaos Space Marines but usually it was just the three I mentioned above which became stale rather quickly.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Yeah my goal is also to always try a new scenario. We now have 65!

 

[Fold]

I don’t disagree with the underlying point of this thread at all, but using blood bowl star players as a comparison point feels like a miss.. so few of them are worth their cost, aren’t they? In tabletop leagues I’ve only ever seen the cheap secret weapon guys used (more fool me for buying and painting a Morg model in my early BB days!) and even watching online where bigger inducement pots are accrued, it always seems like a sacrifice to take a 200k+ star instead of a wizard and a keg!

 

[Wasteland]

I don’t disagree with the underlying point of this thread at all, but using blood bowl star players as a comparison point feels like a miss.. so few of them are worth their cost, aren’t they? In tabletop leagues I’ve only ever seen the cheap secret weapon guys used (more fool me for buying and painting a Morg model in my early BB days!) and even watching online where bigger inducement pots are accrued, it always seems like a sacrifice to take a 200k+ star instead of a wizard and a keg!

Don't forget one-off games over 100K. I often either used Griff, Mighty Zug or Zara for just such an occasion.

Why? Well, to show off the fully painted models of course.