N18 Charging and Versatile

[TOMITCHE]

Hi,

Can you kindly advise on this scenario.

Butcher is 8" away from target and attempts charge with Rotary Flensing Saw (4" Versatile). He rolls a 1 on the D6 (First to the Fray) and therefore moves 6" to the target.

As the charge 'technically' isn't successful as the distance is 8" and I only moved 6" does this mean I can't attack with the free basic fight action or if I can attack due to the 4" Versatile range of the Rotary Saw I don't get the additional +1 A bonus for charging?

Or due to the range of Rotary Saw and with the Versatile trait for the purposes of attacking I did actually charge successfully because the engagement range is extended to 4" (6"+4") within 8" of target and therefore the Butcher can attack and get the additional +1 A bonus?

Hope the query makes sense and thanks in advance.

 

[Beebopalulla]

First separate the elements.

Did charge succeeded?

No ! So no bonus.

Versatile change nothing to the process of a charge.

That being said it's an interesting question.

 

[Aulenback]

According to the 2022 FAQ and errata, yes, if your charge distance gets you into Versatile range, that counts as successful.

Q. When a fighter with a Versatile weapon makes a Charge (Double) action, do they have to end their move in base contact or can they end the move within the Long range of their weapon and then make a free Fight (Basic) action?
A. A fighter may stop within their weapon's Long range and make a free Fight (Basic) action as normal for a successful charge.

In essence, Versatile also could be said to effectively increase your Charge (Double) range, in that you only need to reach Versatile range to successfully charge.

 

[Beebopalulla]

A. A fighter may stop within their weapon's Long range and make a free Fight (Basic) action as normal for a successful charge.

Yes but the rulling imply that a) the charge succeed and b) you choose to stop before being base to base with the target. Here the charge failed, he didn't choose to end it.

 

[HugeSamples]

Charge (Double):
The fighter moves as if making a Move (Simple) action, but adds D3" to the distance they can move. A charging fighter can move to within 1" of one or more more enemy fighters that are Standing and either Active or Engaged, or that are Prone and either Pinned or Seriously Injured, but if they do move to within 1" they must have sufficient movement to get into base to base contact with at leas one enemy fighter. If they do not have sufficient movement to get into base to base contact, they must stop 1" away. If they are Standing and Engaged at the end of this move, they must immediately make a free Fight (Basic) action. If they are Standing and Engaged with a Prone and Pinned fighter at the end of this move, that fighter changes their status to Standing and Active.

Core Rulebook page 103

They only have to be Engaged at the end of the charge.

Versatile:
The wielder of a Versatile weapon does not need to be in base contact with an enemy in order to engage them in melee during their activation. They may engage and make close combat attacks against an enemy model during their activation, so long as the distance between their base and that of the enemy model is equal to or less than the distance shown for the Versatile weapon's Long range characteristic. For example, a fighter armed with a Versatile weapon with a Long range of 2" may engage an enemy model that is up to 2" away.

The enemy model is considered to be engaged, but may not in turn be Engaging the fighter armed with the Versatile weapon unless they too are armed with a Versatile weapon, and so may not be able to make Reaction attacks.

At all other times other than during this fighter's activation, Versatile has no effect.

Core Rulebook page 317

Versatile allows the model to engage the enemy at the Long range characteristic of the Versatile weapon.

Therefore, the charge does not have to make base to base contact in order to succeed with a Versatile weapon.

 

[Beebopalulla]

they must have sufficient movement to get into base to base contact with at leas one enemy fighter. If they do not have sufficient movement to get into base to base contact, they must stop 1" away

Yes and here he doesn't have sufficient range to be in base contact. There fore they are not standing and engage. So versatile can't apply.

2. CHOOSEWEAPONS
The controlling player declares which weapons the fighter will use. A fighter can use up to two weapons with either the Melee or the Sidearm trait, but only one if it also has the Unwieldy trait. Alternatively, the fighter may make unarmed attacks. Unarmed Attacks: A fighter that is not armed with any weapons with either the Melee or Sidearm traits may still make close combat attacks, either as part of an action or as a reaction to an attack from an enemy fighter. An unarmed attack uses the fighter’s unmodified Strength characteristic, has no AP and has a Damage of 1.

p 120 core rulebook. So if a fighter has a knife, a autopistol and a whip and choose to not use the whip and failed his charge he can't switch to the whip.

 

[HugeSamples]

You're advocating since you don't choose your weapons until the Fight (Basic) action that you're not engaged on the charge?

By that logic versatile weapons could not be used on the charge.

This is what the FAQ is probably addressing in @Aulenback post.

 

[Beebopalulla]

You're advocating since you don't choose your weapons until the Fight (Basic) action that you're not engaged on the charge?

By that logic versatile weapons could not be used on the charge.

This is what the FAQ is probably addressing in @Aulenback post.

What???

 

[HugeSamples]

On page 120 weapons aren't chosen at charge time, but during the Fight (Basic) action.

 

[HugeSamples]

Either way even if they don't have movement to reach base to base with a model, if they are in versatile range at the end of the charge they get to make the free Fight (Basic) action, as well as get the +1 attack for charging (because the charged). Because all that is required for a charge to be "successful" is to be engaged at the end of it.

Sure if you choose not to use the whip, then you don't get to attack with anything.

 

[Beebopalulla]

Yes, but you still need to be in range to have the opportunity to use it.

 

[HugeSamples]

sure so if move + d3 takes you within versatile range, then you are engaged at the end of the charge. Thus the charge has succeeded.

 

[Beebopalulla]

Not to be stuborn but i disagree. That being said you may both be right and so if i have the pleasure even if unlikely to play Necromunda with either of you i will follow the arbitrator rulling or the dice. Now Back to reading " hall of the ancients".

 

[HugeSamples]

Def play it how you want to , but for me it's pretty clear how it works .

 

[Aulenback]

Yes and here he doesn't have sufficient range to be in base contact. There fore they are not standing and engage. So versatile can't apply.

Don't forget the first half of that quoted line, since it is an if/then statement. The if remains an important part of any if/then: "if they do move to within 1" they must have sufficient movement to get into base to base contact with at least one enemy fighter". Stopping within Versatile range, or only reaching Versatile range, is not moving within 1" of the target. But thanks to Versatile, they are engaged. Since they are Engaged, the Charge is successful, and they must make a free Fight (Basic) action against the target, with +1 attack dice for a successful charge.

 

[BranBuccarcher]

In your example of needing to get to the target 8" away with a rotary saw, you would only need to move 4" to be able to complete the charge as 4" move + 4" versatile would "count as" being in base contact for purposes of the charge, so you would get your full attacks (+1a charge etc) on the target and unless they themself have an equally ranged versatile weapon they would not be able to make reaction attacks back.

 

[Aulenback]

Yes.

You roll your D3" for charge, and add it to your movement. If that distance is 4" or more, you move 4" and stop within the 4" Versatile range of your weapon. If you stop within the weapon's Versatile range to the target, then you are Engaged. If you are Engaged, then the Charge was successful. If the Charge was successful, then you get +1 dice in the free Fight (Basic) action that you MUST take. If the target does not have a Versatile weapon, they get no Reaction attacks. That is how Versatile works, at least as of the 2020 FAQ.

You are correct.

 

[Ben_S]

Because all that is required for a charge to be "successful" is to be engaged at the end of it.

But thanks to Versatile, they are engaged. Since they are Engaged, the Charge is successful,

Did GW ever clear up whether the model with the Versatile weapon is engaged though?

I thought there was some debate about this, given that the below could be read as saying the 'chargee' is engaged but the charger is not.

Versatile:
The wielder of a Versatile weapon does not need to be in base contact with an enemy in order to engage them in melee during their activation. They may engage and make close combat attacks against an enemy model during their activation...
The enemy model is considered to be engaged, but may not in turn be Engaging the fighter armed with the Versatile weapon unless they too are armed with a Versatile weapon

IF that interpretation is right, then because the charger isn't engaged, they haven't succeeded with the charge and don't get the +1A.

 

[Beebopalulla]

Did GW ever clear up whether the model with the Versatile weapon is engaged though?

I thought there was some debate about this, given that the below could be read as saying the 'chargee' is engaged but the charger is not.



IF that interpretation is right, then because the charger isn't engaged, they haven't succeeded with the charge and don't get the +1A.

Yes, you found what buged me so far !

 

[Aulenback]

According to the 2020 FAQ, yes, you do successfully Engage your opponent, even if you stop short of base-to-base contact, as long as you are in your Versatile weapon range, and then must make your (free) Fight action against the target, "for a successful charge." Text transcribed above. Here it is again:

Q. When a fighter with a Versatile weapon makes a Charge (Double) action, do they have to end their move in base contact or can they end the move within the Long range of their weapon and then make a free Fight (Basic) action?
A. A fighter may stop within their weapon's Long range and make a free Fight (Basic) action as normal for a successful charge.

Which, as Bebop pointed out earlier, implies that this is then a successful charge.