N18 Charging pinned models facing

daNNux

Juve
Aug 5, 2013
18
3
8
Hallsberg, Sweden
Hi

The question is what facing does a charged pinned model have when it stands up?

Does the pinned model get the -1 to hit because it had to "turn" to face the charger?
 
Alternative view:

The pinned fighter starts with no facing, and thus the attacker is not in their vision arc, therefore:
- the attacker always counts as outside of their vision arc for the purpose of e.g. ‘Backstab’
- the pinned fighter has to ‘turn to face’ to make reaction attacks

better represents the pinned fighter having to suddenly defend themselves and react from having been previously scrabbling to keep their head down.

But rules are vague to the point of not covering this at all.
 
Alternative view:

The pinned fighter starts with no facing, and thus the attacker is not in their vision arc, therefore:
- the attacker always counts as outside of their vision arc for the purpose of e.g. ‘Backstab’
- the pinned fighter has to ‘turn to face’ to make reaction attacks

better represents the pinned fighter having to suddenly defend themselves and react from having been previously scrabbling to keep their head down.

But rules are vague to the point of not covering this at all.

I’m updating this as have seen that the Ash Wastes Rulebook has updated the relevant sections.

ORIGINAL RULEBOOK (p50):
“PINNED: Fighters are generally Pinned as a result of being hit by enemy fire, and will need to spend an action to stand up, becoming Standing and Active. If a Prone fighter that is Pinned ever comes into base to base contact with an enemy fighter, they will immediately stand up, becoming Standing and Engaged, without having to spend an action to do so.

(note above Specifically didn’t list as a free ‘Stand up (Basic)’ action, just that they changed their status, which in itself does not allow the owning fighter to choose their facing).

ASH WASTES RULEBOOK (p30):
”PINNED: Fighters generally become Prone and ‘Pinned’ as a result of being hit by enemy fire, and will need to spend an action to stand up, becoming Standing and Active. If a Prone and Pinned fighter ever becomes Engaged by an enemy fighter, they will immediately perform a Stand Up (Basic) action for free (i.e. without having to spend an action to do so), becoming Standing and Engaged).

In both rulebooks (italic descriptive text added in Ash Wastes Rulebook):

STAND UP (BASIC): “For most fighters, quickly getting back to their feet when they have been knocked down is a priority. The fighter stands up, returning to Active status. The controlling player can choose the fighter’s facing.

So seems pretty clear now that a ’Prone and Pinned‘ fighter, upon becoming engaged with an enemy fighter, becomes ‘Standing and Active’ and the owning player can choose their facing, which unless their feeling particularly brave, won’t be to turn their back on the engaging fighter.

In addition, on p62 of Ash Wastes Rulebook they’ve expanded the call-out box on ‘Changing Facing’ quite a bit from the original rulebook; and the second paragraph makes this a bit more confusing, stating that “a fighter that changes their facing when Standing and Engaged will normally suffer negative modifiers to any HIt rolls they make. This represents the fighter turning quickly to confront an attacker.”

To me, that sounds as if RAI, they should suffer the -1 to hit for having to react quickly from being face down in the mud/ducking downto face their attacker.

But RAW, they change their facing as part of the free ‘Stand Up (Basic)’ action they receive, and this happens before the ’1. Turn to Face’ step of their reaction attacks, so would not result in a -1 penalty. It also means that the controlling player can choose their facing before the ‘Backstab’ trait takes effect, so in most cases this would not trigger either.
 
As an added note to above, the wording ‘Engaged BY an Enemy fighter’ I think mean that they would also get a free ‘Stand Up (Basic)’ action if an enemy fighter attacked them from a distance with a Versatile weapon, even though they themselves would not then be Engaged with the enemy fighter.
 
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So seems pretty clear now that a ’Prone and Pinned‘ fighter, upon becoming engaged with an enemy fighter, becomes ‘Standing and Active’ and the owning player can choose their facing, which unless their feeling particularly brave, won’t be to turn their back on the engaging fighter.
TBH when we’ve played we assumed that would be the case as anything else would by pretty silly.

It’s nice to hear that they’ve clarified it in the AW book though. Can someone with the last FAQ check to see if they noted it in there?

With all of this multiple Rulebook nonsense there’s still a very high chance that even new players are still buying the 2018 Hardback and getting old outdated information (unless they really have done a ‘Second Printing’ of it) as this thread proves.
 
TBH when we’ve played we assumed that would be the case as anything else would by pretty silly.

I'm glad with it having been clarified, but disagree with idea that a Prone fighter not being penalised with changing facing was silly. If you have maneuvered your fighter behind an enemy fighter ready to charge, if that fighter you are charging is 'Standing and Active' (e.g. ready), they get penalized for having to react and turn around. But if they get pinned (e.g. not ready; they've been knocked off their feet, or taken by surprise and having to dick down), they suddenly get an inherent bonus of being able to ignore any penalty to being charged from an unexpected direction. It just removes some of the options for positional strategy and order of actions (e.g. suppressing fire as your melee fighters maneuver in behind them).
 
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With all of this multiple Rulebook nonsense there’s still a very high chance that even new players are still buying the 2018 Hardback and getting old outdated information (unless they really have done a ‘Second Printing’ of it) as this thread proves.

Yes, it makes pick-up games trickier than they need to be, and even in campaigns having to make sure everyone is clear which rulesets are being used. The different versions of Sentries/Sneak Attack are one clear example, as can completely change how you approach this as both defender/attacker based on which ruleset you think you are using.
 
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disagree with idea that a Prone fighter not being penalised with changing facing was silly.
Traditionalism. ORB was like that. It’s pretty much the case that when a pinned fighter is attacked they ‘stand up to face the enemy’. I think even the Underhive rule book said that.

Their vision arc is 0° I.e. up (they are placed on their back). So it doesn’t matter what approach is made, left right, head, feet - the pinned fighter will spot them as they charge in and respond accordingly.

It’s really down to you if you want to change and apply a penalty - the ‘turn to face’ one is suggesting the fighter is caught off guard.
 
ASH WASTES RULEBOOK (p30):
”PINNED: Fighters generally become Prone and ‘Pinned’ as a result of being hit by enemy fire, and will need to spend an action to stand up, becoming Standing and Active. If a Prone and Pinned fighter ever becomes Engaged by an enemy fighter, they will immediately perform a Stand Up (Basic) action for free (i.e. without having to spend an action to do so), becoming Standing and Engaged).
Do models with the Mounted condition still need to take an Initiative test as part of that free Stand Up (Basic) action? I don't see why they wouldn't, other than it creates an awkward situation if they fail so it'd be simpler just to say they auto succeed.

(I'm thinking this sequence could do with being rewritten to allow attacks against Pinned targets (with the benefits for Backstab etc. applying) and moving the free Stand Up to the same timing as the free turn to face, with the same to hit penalty, and Mounted models that fail to Stand Up would forfeit their Reaction attack opportunity. But I don't write the rules.)
 
Their vision arc is 0° I.e. up (they are placed on their back). So it doesn’t matter what approach is made, left right, head, feet - the pinned fighter will spot them as they charge in and respond accordingly.

Being a pedant, I want to say that that sounds like a 360° vision arc, not the 0° vision arc of someone on their face in the mud/slime.

But yes, up to arbitrator/players if want to change from rules as written, because rules as written they are very clear now.

Do models with the Mounted condition still need to take an Initiative test as part of that free Stand Up (Basic) action? I don't see why they wouldn't, other than it creates an awkward situation if they fail so it'd be simpler just to say they auto succeed.

Well, hadn't come across that (our last campaign didn't have vehicles or mounts, and haven't played with vehicles/mounts yet). As a fighter can't be Prone and Pinned if engaged, I assume it must mean they must automatically pass their initiative test - but again, that seems to be another unintended benefit, this time for the Mounted fighter (if they survive being charged of course). That could probably do with an official FAQ off GW, but think if I was playing I'd just for for automatic pass simply for the sake of making it as simple as possible (ruleset is an abstraction, not a simulator, after all).
 
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Being a pedant, I want to say that that sounds like a 360° vision arc, not the 0° vision arc of someone on their face in the mud/slime.
Initially I thought the same but checked my book here and it says pinned have no vision arc.

They can perform blind fire which is 360° but at a -2 to hit.

But when has this edition been consistent eh??

🤷🏻‍♂️
 
I'm glad with it having been clarified, but disagree with idea that a Prone fighter not being penalised with changing facing was silly. If you have maneuvered your fighter behind an enemy fighter ready to charge, if that fighter you are charging is 'Standing and Active' (e.g. ready), they get penalized for having to react and turn around. But if they get pinned (e.g. not ready; they've been knocked off their feet, or taken by surprise and having to dick down), they suddenly get an inherent bonus of being able to ignore any penalty to being charged from an unexpected direction. It just removes some of the options for positional strategy and order of actions (e.g. suppressing fire as your melee fighters maneuver in behind them).
I always accepted that because pinning is generally too punishing anyway, so a niche comfort. If you want to charge someone in the back, don't pin them first! Of course they can go pinned voluntarily but at least that costs an action and if you then don't charge them can cost them additional action next activation.
 
Initially I thought the same but checked my book here and it says pinned have no vision arc.

They can perform blind fire which is 360° but at a -2 to hit.

But when has this edition been consistent eh??

🤷🏻‍♂️
First I was all onboard the 360 thing and couldn't understand why you said 0 degrees. With some afterthought, it sort of depends. It certainly has the effect of 360 for the purpose of choosing facing when engaged and blindfire as you point out. But for other purposes like front-armour and shields, it will be 0 degrees and those benefits will be lost.
 
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Well, I’m using an older book so who knows what’s happened in the interim.

The text I’m referring to is:

PRONE

A fighter that is laid down is Prone. A Prone fighter has no facing and they effectively do not have a vision arc. Unless otherwise stated, Prone fighters never block line of sight - they are considered to be well out of the way of any combat.”

And:

PINNED

A Prone fighter that is laid face-up is Pinned, representing the fighter keeping their head down as bullets are flying. Fighters are generally pinned as the result of enemy fire, and will need to spend an action to stand up. If a Pinned fighter ever comes into contact with an enemy, they stand up and engage the enemy fighter - suddenly they have more pressing things on their mind than ducking for cover!”

N17 Underhive Rulebook.