Charging to reveal hidden targets

[thisisalie]

Lets say you have say 2 fighters and your opponent has 2 fighters. One of your opponents fighters is hidden.

If your fighter charging the visible fighter reveals the hidden fighter, can your remaining fighter charge the formerly hidden fighter?

Another situation occurs when a failed charge reveals a formerly hidden fighter - can he now be charged?

It feels somewhat cheesy charging opposing fighters you don't really care about reaching in order to reveal opposing hidden fighters during the charge phase of movement.

 

[speccy]

No unfortunately. You declare all charging models then declare what models are being targetted for the charge then measure and move each model accordingly. The hidden model is spotted after the charge and are no longer hidden and therefore can be targetted by shooting.

 

[Anthony]

I can't recall there being a rule stating all charge declarations must be made first before moving chargers?

 

[speccy]

I can't recall there being a rule stating all charge declarations must be made first before moving chargers?

I'm referring to the stages as oppose to an out and out rule. But all charging is done before compulsory moves are done. The phase of charging is done before anything and you cannot charge an enemy in hiding. If you are hiding during the charge phase then you cannot be charged even if you would normally be spotted during this. You would be revealed in the compulsory move stage.

Charging a model then revealing a hidden fighter and trying to charge him/her with another model is a bit nonsense. The fighter would have been hidden before the 2nd model would have known he was there.

 

[p0dde]

I was surprised to find that the rules do not state that you declare all charges before moving, as that is how I have played it so far, and I have found it very limiting.

Charging a model then revealing a hidden fighter and trying to charge him/her with another model is a bit nonsense

Nothing in a turn-based game happens simultaneous. You can call it nonsense, but that is how the game plays i all other aspects as well. The fact that you can spot an enemy during your charge, just adds another tactical element. It also opens up for the exploit/tactic of charging a fighter that you know you cannot reach, just to spot another enemy, that your second fighter can charge, which might be debatable.

 

[thisisalie]

I'd dislike having all charges declared before movement - as then overwatch because a lot more powerful versus charges. Overwached players would then know ahead of schedule where they are all going and can decide which shots are most important and in the event of any hidden overwatchers you yourself cannot be charged when you expose yourself by firing.

 

[thisisalie]

overwatch *becomes* a lot more powerful - I can't see how to edit my post...

 

[enyoss]

I can't recall there being a rule stating all charge declarations must be made first before moving chargers?

It does say on NCE p10:

"If you want a model to charge at an enemy and attack him hand-to-hand then you must do this before moving any other models. When you charge you must declare to your opponent that you are charging and indicate which enemy model you are attacking."

So if you declare a charge with one model and move it straight away, you can't declare any more charges by the looks of it as you have now moved a model? Does this mean you have to declare all charges at the same time? Dunno really, but that does kind of mess with the following bit on the same page:

"Move your fighters one at a time and finish moving each before moving the next one."

Unless the declaration of the charge is considered separate to a fighter's actual move?

I always thought it said outright that you declared them all at the same time though, so maybe I'm reading it wrong? .

 

[speccy]

Those where my thoughts aswell @enyoss

 

[Ben_S]

You declare all charging models then declare what models are being targetted for the charge then measure and move each model accordingly.

IIRC in WFB you would declare which units were charging before going on to resolve those charges, so that's something like you propose - but even there you didn't have to declare the target of the charge, only that the unit was charging. So, even if a rule like this was applied in Necromunda, it would be possible to declare that models A and B are charging, then move model A into contact with model C, simultaneously revealing hidden model D, and then charge B into D.

IBut all charging is done before compulsory moves are done. The phase of charging is done before anything and you cannot charge an enemy in hiding. If you are hiding during the charge phase then you cannot be charged even if you would normally be spotted during this. You would be revealed in the compulsory move stage.

Why would you only be revealed in the compulsory movement sub-phase and not in the charging sub-phase?

"If you want a model to charge at an enemy and attack him hand-to-hand then you must do this before moving any other models. When you charge you must declare to your opponent that you are charging and indicate which enemy model you are attacking."

So if you declare a charge with one model and move it straight away, you can't declare any more charges by the looks of it as you have now moved a model? Does this mean you have to declare all charges at the same time?

I just noticed this. I think it's just poor rules writing (from GW). I take it the RAI is that 'other models' means 'models that are not charging', i.e. all charging happens before any other movements.

There's an obvious reading of the RAW according to which you can only make one charge per turn, but I think it's clearly not the intention.

 

[thisisalie]

@enyoss I can see that interpretation. My interpretation was: You must do all charges first - 1 by 1 until you are done charging but you can always have more figures charge e.g. in the event jumping down hurts and you need someone else to.

 

[enyoss]

I just noticed this. I think it's just poor rules writing (from GW). I take it the RAI is that 'other models' means 'models that are not charging', i.e. all charging happens before any other movements.

There's an obvious reading of the RAW according to which you can only make one charge per turn, but I think it's clearly not the intention.

I'm not sure what the RAI is to be honest. At the time there was a heavy cross over between Necromunda, 40K and even WHFB. I never played 40K, but I know that in WHFB at the time you had to declare all charges at the start of the turn, and then move them one at a time before doing all other movement (as you mentioned, although I could swear you had to declare the target of the charge at the same time). If that's also the case in 2ed 40K (and I have no idea if it is) it seems reasonable that would be the RAI in the original Necro as well?

As you point out though, if every declaration has to be followed immediately by the charge movement itself the RAW would limit players to at most one charge per turn. Probably not RAI on that one .

Sometimes I wonder whether all this scrutiny on the rules is a good thing or a bad thing given the weird exceptions you can end up finding in there .

 

[spafe]

next thing to consider... that will factor in here... if you can declare with ganger A... if you have to resolve that ganger before declaring the next charge.... Ganger B can see if Gagner A could reach Ganger C before declaring his own charge... meaning if Ganger A failed the charge ganger B can not charge but merely walk then shoot Ganger C in the face. If you have to declare all charges first... Ganger B would have had to declare before you know Ganger A is out of range meaning both fail charges... and in turn get charged/shot in face by Ganger C

 

[Fold]

lol @ 1 charge per turn only but that is indeed the written rule!

2nd edition 40k is as you say enyoss - declare everything then move all chargers before progressing to the normal movement phase.

 

[Ben_S]

I know that in WHFB at the time you had to declare all charges at the start of the turn, and then move them one at a time before doing all other movement (as you mentioned, although I could swear you had to declare the target of the charge at the same time).

This may have varied between editions and, in any case, it's been quite a while since I played WFB. You may be right about having to declare targets when declaring the charge. Though, in 8th edition at least, it was possible to later redirect the charge (e.g. if the original target fled) - that may be what I'm thinking of.

It certainly seems that the Necromunda rules have some gaps here, which is a bit odd if they were based off 40k rules in which things were more tightly specified.

 

[Anthony]

It looks like the 40k second edition rules are very clear. For whatever reason the "Move Chargers" part is omitted in the Necro and Mordheim rules. GorkaMorka doesn't appear to have any stipulations, so you can charge and move in whatever order you like.

 

[Ben_S]

I'm always conflicted over things like this (that is, to what extent it's reasonable to port rules over from 40k or other games to Necromunda).

On the one hand, since Necromunda is based on 2nd edition 40k, it's often reasonable to suppose that something not quite specified in the one case was intended to work as in the other case.

But, on the other hand, if they did say something in 40k and then didn't say the same thing in Necromunda, it could be that they deliberately removed it, since it's obviously not the case that it simply didn't occur to them.

In this case, there is clearly a difference, since in 40k compulsory movement happened between the declaration of charges and the actual resolution of them. So I don't think the 40k rules help here.