N18 Collected Errors/Typos in N22 Rulebook (Ash Wastes)

[cardyfreak]

A new external conflict with the release of N23-

Ash Waste rulebook;
Page 126;
Near wastes;
Sand trap;
Makes reference to ‘horrors in the dark’ rule in Necromunda rulebook, this rule is not contained in the new rulebook. In fact, the new rulebook has changed this event, it now sees the addition of a beasts lair.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Thought I had summarized this already, but somehow must have forgotten. I automatically assumed this reference would point to the 2018 rulebook? Because the time of publication was last year (2022). Not sure how any other references to the 2018 rulebook looks like. Unless we have strong indication this points to a book which would be released 1 year into the future (the new N23 book), this isn't really a mistake. But it is clear evidence this book isn't "standalone". It relies on another rulebook. Also to save myself from a lot of work, I normally don't go back in time and update previous summaries based on future books. Each summary is mainly meant as a diff at that point in time. However I can of course make exceptions.

 

[cardyfreak]

That’s fine, I thought the summary project was a living endeavour listing issues so people know what needs house ruling etc. I labelled this as an external conflict rather than an error as it worked fine before the new release, but as they are both available to buy and the old rulebook isn’t, I thought I’d log it and leave it to you, the master of ceremonies, to decide what to do with it

 

[TopsyKretts]

Haha I wish it would be a living endeavour But damn that's a lot of work! Ideally I'd go back to the summaries of Judgement, Ruin and other books to, cause the latest rulebook touch stuff all over the place.

 

[cardyfreak]

Well whatever form they take, I think they’ve been incredibly useful for identifying areas for house-ruling so thanks for all the work you do man

 

[TopsyKretts]

I don't mean to discourage anyone from commenting on relevant info for past books based on new updates. To elaborate, thanks to community feedback there are at least 60 data points recorded for the new N23 rulebook. That is a huge job in itself to track how the game changed for this individual book at time of publication. Due to the nature of that specific book, being a rulebook and making a lot of changes to universal rules, most of those data points could potentially be relevant for most or all previous books. For example the update that allows hangers-on to be purchased at gang creation. This is a change that could affect literally all other books? So 1 data point is now multiplied by 24. Now we don't have such a thread for each book unfortunately, but there are currently 14. So what would originally be 60 data points for the new book could escalate to 840 data points in total for 14 threads. That's what I mean by a lot of work

That being said, all comments are always welcome. I will reserve the right to be lazy and not necessarily update old summaries based on new content.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Looks like Target Priority changed in this book (and also reprinted in this new way for the current N23 rulebook).

Old (N18/N19/N21):

1. Declare the Shot
2. Check the Range
3. Make the hit roll
4. Target is Pinned
5. Resolve hits

New (N22/N23):

1. Assess Target Priority
2. Declare the Shot
3. Measure Range
4. Make the Hit Roll
5. Resolve Hits

There should be some consequences to this. One consequence that seems rather obvious is that weapon accuracy modifiers don't affect target priority any more! Step 1 is Target Priority. "...if the closest eligible target is Prone and Seriously Injured, Wrecked or harder to hit than one further away (due to negative modifiers applied to the hit roll), the attacking model may choose to ignore it.". So modifiers mentioned here are only negative, which could imply that it's limited to cover and not weapon modifiers? Furhter, step 2 is now choosing weapon and the target.

To determine closest target, you may have to measure the range. But measure range is step 3 now. And choosing weapon is step 2. So if in doubt, you could effectively gain a free measure BEFORE choosing which weapon to use? Of course there are ways to determining the closest target without getting the measurement in inches, but the rules never say this.

What is the purpose for this rule update? To fix something else? Can't see the benefit of it yet. I'm sure a lot of people just fudge it, shaking up the order and apply accuracy modifiers to target priority any way. But that can't be formalized without avoiding free pre-measure of target priority? And even if it could, that's not how GW formalized it in the rules, arguably both RAW and RAI.

 

[Ben_S]

One consequence that seems rather obvious is that weapon accuracy modifiers don't affect target priority any more! Step 1 is Target Priority. "...if the closest eligible target is Prone and Seriously Injured, Wrecked or harder to hit than one further away (due to negative modifiers applied to the hit roll), the attacking model may choose to ignore it.". So modifiers mentioned here are only negative, which could imply that it's limited to cover and not weapon modifiers? Furhter, step 2 is now choosing weapon and the target.

This seems a bit of a stretch to me, since weapon modifiers can be negative. But you're right that it's not entirely clear how things are supposed to work. (Though I think there have always been grey areas about some things, like how to determine the closest target without pre-measuring.)

 

[TopsyKretts]

Could be a simplification, but a weird one IMO as positive accuracy modifiers are arguably more common than negatives, particularly for most of the basic weaponry.

But even when ignoring that, Target Priority checks are now strictly specified in step 1, before choosing weapon in step 2! And before measuring range in step 3. Can you read anything between the lines that implies RAI is the opposite way? I would certainly prefer to fudge up the order here, but can this be justified at all other than common sense despite how the rules are written?

 

[Ben_S]

I think the reference to negative modifiers is simply because it's only negative modifiers that will make someone harder to hit (though of course it could be that model A is harder to hit than model B because you'd have a positive bonus shooting at B).

It's certainly not that clear how all this is supposed to work. One possibility may be that you're supposed to consider all the weapons you have available, since you haven't yet chosen what you're using.

Before, you could nominate your weapon and then you might be able to ignore a closer target, because they would be harder to hit with the weapon nominated, even though you might also have another weapon that you could have used (which would make them easier to hit).

Perhaps the intent is that you can't do this - you have to shoot the closer model, unless they're harder to hit with any weapon.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Perhaps the intent is that you can't do this - you have to shoot the closer model, unless they're harder to hit with any weapon.

That would make things easier - ignore accuracy modifiers completely for target priority.

 

[almic85]

There’s only two weapon I can think of that are harder to hit at close range than short range, being the grenade launcher and the long rifle.

I’m sure there may be a couple of others but usually it’s further away is harder to hit.

So common sense would be that the target priority is the closest model not in cover or with some other negative hit modifier.

And short range modifiers only then matter if you know the distance to the target, which you can’t know without measuring, and you can’t measure until you declare your target.

Again this all leads to the idea that the priority target is the closest target not suffering from a negative hit modifier for cover or similar.

 

[Punktaku]

I’ve always wondered about this…. Because it would be what the model thinks is closest/easier from their POV. So there’s always a potential for them to chose a model thinking it’s closer, but it’s actually further away but you won’t know that until you measure. So does that force them to change targets if they’re equally difficult to hit, but the other one is actually 0.25” closer?

 

[MusingWarboss]

Old (N18/N19/N21):

1. Declare the Shot
2. Check the Range
3. Make the hit roll
4. Target is Pinned
5. Resolve hits

New (N22/N23):

1. Assess Target Priority
2. Declare the Shot
3. Measure Range
4. Make the Hit Roll
5. Resolve Hits

Hang on, you didn’t put Target is Pinned on the new list. Does that mean that a target only gets pinned after you’ve resolved the hits now? And if you hit them but didn’t do anything they’re not pinned at all??

If so that’s a huge change.

 

[cardyfreak]

Huh, I’ve never considered weapon modifiers when assessing how difficult a target is to hit, I’ve just always used cover as the determiner. I’ve never had cause to question it until now!

 

[TopsyKretts]

Hang on, you didn’t put Target is Pinned on the new list. Does that mean that a target only gets pinned after you’ve resolved the hits now? And if you hit them but didn’t do anything they’re not pinned at all??

If so that’s a huge change.

Relax, it's just moved under the "Make the hit roll" section

 

[TopsyKretts]

I’ve always wondered about this…. Because it would be what the model thinks is closest/easier from their POV. So there’s always a potential for them to chose a model thinking it’s closer, but it’s actually further away but you won’t know that until you measure. So does that force them to change targets if they’re equally difficult to hit, but the other one is actually 0.25” closer?

Yes. Or pass Cool check for Target Priority. Or rotate your 90 degree view angle in such a way that you can see one and not the other This is the same in both old and new versions of the shooting steps.

 

[TopsyKretts]

There’s only two weapon I can think of that are harder to hit at close range than short range, being the grenade launcher and the long rifle.

I’m sure there may be a couple of others but usually it’s further away is harder to hit.

So common sense would be that the target priority is the closest model not in cover or with some other negative hit modifier.

And short range modifiers only then matter if you know the distance to the target, which you can’t know without measuring, and you can’t measure until you declare your target.

Again this all leads to the idea that the priority target is the closest target not suffering from a negative hit modifier for cover or similar.

Yes you are right. The remaining weapons are mostly those similar to the long rifle: long las, sniper, needle long rifle ++.