N18 Collected Errors/Typos in N23 Rulebook

[Lunarcruiser]

One loophole is buying a Master Crafted version of the same weapon. You're allowed to stash a weapon if you replace it with one that is Master Crafted. Bit expensive way..

RAW no apart from looting a corpse of the your dead champion or specialist or the master crafted route as above described.
Most of the House specific weapons are fairly middle tier for thier use and similar types are available at the Trade Post. Suppression laser is essentially a shotgun. Enforcers shotguns and bolters are basically normal versions but better ammo rolls. So a lot of them can get the rough same use.
Thematically however, the vehicles that the gangs use are custom made rigs made from scrap and subjected to incredible abuse. Ash storms are nasty. These buggys roll and get trashed regularly. Would you bolt a tank of lethal chemicals to a roll cage and careen around the wastes like a maniac? You would rather trust a foot slogger to care for the expensive gun.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Enforcer boltgun has better ammo but the 'enforcer' shotgun is identical to normal combat shotgun. The only consequence of having a separate name is ammo options.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Don't think it's been mentioned before but fighters can buy custom secondary skills for 12XP now.

 

[komret]

Internal conflict:

- Page 82, Gang Composition: The total number of models with the Gang Fighter (X) special rule in the gang must always be equal to, or higher than, the total number of models without the Gang Fighter (X) special rule combined, not counting Hangers-on or Hired Guns.

Page 88, Hangers-on and Hired Guns: Hangers-on and Brutes do not count towards the number of fighters in the gang for the purposes of determining how many fighters of other types the gang may contain.


The new rulebook seems to differentiate Brutes and Hangers-on as two separate categories (Brutes not being a sub-category of Hangers-on anymore despite shared recruitment pool), but p. 82 does not mention Brutes. I guess it is a copy/paste error and Brutes should be listed there as well? What about Exotic Beasts, do they have any effect on gang composition? RAW, they do, as well as servo skulls :-O

 

[TopsyKretts]

Not sure about that one. There are many cases of things being overly explained some places (hangsers-on and brutes) and less so in other cases (hangers-on). Nothing I have seen changes the fact that brutes are still a subset of hangers-on. Perhaps others could join and share their view?

Exotic beasts are wargear and people seem to assume that means they don't affect gang composition balance. That's implicit and never caused confusion as far as I can remember. Again, happy to see what others think here.

 

[Xisor_of_Karak_Izor]

Exotic beasts are wargear and people seem to assume that means they don't affect gang composition balance. That's implicit and never caused confusion as far as I can remember. Again, happy to see what others think here.

I think exotic beasts, at least, make sense as they're "tethered" to a certain fighter, so it's not quite like a "are they counted?" situation as much as "together they count as one". It feels like less of an issue? Whilst brutes are sortof confusing, as it's easy to imagine what other ways it could be intended, the beasts are a good deal less ambiguous.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Just get the ablative armour to balance the Gang Fighter ratio.
What do you call juves then?...

 

[komret]

Changes and improvements:

Page 59, Line of Sight: If a straight, uninterrupted line can be drawn from within the first model's vision arc to any part of the other model, the first model has line of sight to them.

It wasn't always clear how (or if) the vision arc relates to the line of sight, as discussed here, to me this is a welcome clarification.

 

[almic85]

To me Exotic beasts are wargear with fighter cards rather than fighters in their own right.

I don’t see why they would actually affect gang composition, but I can see the weirdness in the wording of gang composition now referring directly to “models with gang fighter (x)” making up 50% of the gang.

Brutes are also implied to be hangers on as stated on page 88 in the first line after the Brutes heading “unlike other Hangers-on…”. This leans to Brutes just being a type of Hanger On with explicit exceptions.

Also worth noting that the heading on p.88 is Hangers-on and Brutes not Hangers-on and Hired Guns.

Hired Guns are on p.89 and are not ever added to the gang roster so don’t affect gang composition.

 

[TopsyKretts]

So do you consider this to be a an intenral conflict in this book?

 

[komret]

To me Exotic beasts are wargear with fighter cards rather than fighters in their own right.

They should actually be counted as fighters according to p. 57 (Any model that represents a single humanoid or a single animal is referred to as a 'fighter' by the rules.) But that's a different story and otherwise I agree with your interpretation.

So do you consider this to be a an intenral conflict in this book?

There seems to be an agreement on the intention so it should probably be considered sloppy writing rather than a conflict. As I see it, they don't define the terms Hangers-on and model too clearly for this context.

 

[Ben_S]

Changes and improvements:

Page 59, Line of Sight: If a straight, uninterrupted line can be drawn from within the first model's vision arc to any part of the other model, the first model has line of sight to them.

It wasn't always clear how (or if) the vision arc relates to the line of sight, as discussed here, to me this is a welcome clarification.

Out of curiosity, how is vision arc defined?

 

[ChapterAquila92]

Out of curiosity, how is vision arc defined?

p58 - [A vision arc] is 90-degrees to the front of the model - as determined by the direction the model's head is facing or the direction in which its weapon is pointed, whichever the controlling player prefers* - starting from the centre of their base.

*I personally will always default to where the model's head is pointing.

And for vehicles:

p59 - Determine a vehicle's vision arc by drawing two imaginary lines through the corners of the vehicle.

 

[Ben_S]

So, RAW:
(i) A's vision arc is the triangle shown,
(ii) a straight, uninterrupted line can be drawn from within that vision arc to B,
(iii) therefore, model A has line of sight to model B.

I know the meaning is clear enough, so I assume that no one would seriously argue for this, but it looks to me like they haven't got much better at explaining the rules in writing.

 

[scanning]

They should actually be counted as fighters according to p. 57 (Any model that represents a single humanoid or a single animal is referred to as a 'fighter' by the rules.) But that's a different story and otherwise I agree with your interpretation.


There seems to be an agreement on the intention so it should probably be considered sloppy writing rather than a conflict. As I see it, they don't define the terms Hangers-on and model too clearly for this context.

To my mind the rules seem clear on Exotic Beasts.

Page 86
Exotic Beasts
Exotic Beasts are purchased as wargear and should be recorded on their owner’s Fighter card accordingly. However, where Exotic Beasts differ from normal wargear is that they have their own Fighter card, which details their unique stats, skills, and weaponry.
Page 87
Exotic Beasts follow all of the normal rules for a fighter, with the following exceptions:
Whenever the fighter that owns the Exotic Beast is selected for a scenario, the Exotic Beast may also be deployed. This may take the number of fighters in a starting crew above the number specified by the scenario.

While they are considered Fighters they don't count as seperate members of the crew.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Yeah I don't see the topic of exotic beast and Hangers-on/Brute as unclear either. No problem that others disagree, the discussion is very much welcome. My only concern is needing confirmation from more people before adding it to the summary.

 

[TopsyKretts]

From my notes, omitted from Trading Post in new rulebook (some, e.g. unique weapons, for obvious reasons) - there may well be more from recent apocrypha and Dramatis personnae.

Unique Weapons
- ...
- Giant Rat Jaws

Jaws is under Giant Rat profile, not Trading Post (as is how these unique weapons are traditionally published). Interestingly Giant Rat now finally got a limitation! 0-3

 

[SirWalterManny]

So, RAW:
(i) A's vision arc is the triangle shown,
(ii) a straight, uninterrupted line can be drawn from within that vision arc to B,
(iii) therefore, model A has line of sight to model B.

View attachment 181289

I know the meaning is clear enough, so I assume that no one would seriously argue for this, but it looks to me like they haven't got much better at explaining the rules in writing.

Ha, hadn’t noticed but now pointed out yes, RAW that is exactly what it says. I’ve never met anyone who has tried to play it that way… but I guess a mixture of common sense and experience of tabletop games has meant people have played RAI possibly without even realising.

I guess it should be as below, or similar;

If a straight, uninterrupted line can be drawn from the first model to any part of the other model*, whilst remaining entirely within the first models vision arc, the first model has a line of sight to them.

Or alternatively, a well known ai chat bot suggested it should be rewritten as follows:

A model has a line of sight to another model if an uninterrupted, straight line can be drawn from the first model to any part of the second model, without passing outside of the first model's field of vision.

 

[SirWalterManny]

Jaws is under Giant Rat profile, not Trading Post (as is how these unique weapons are traditionally published). Interestingly Giant Rat now finally got a limitation! 0-3

Yeah, soz. List I posted was I think ANY weapon profile wargear item which didn’t appear in the new combined trading post/reference list. There are quite a few exotic beast ‘weapons’ on the list which for obvious reasons wouldn’t expect to be purchasable from trading post… but is nice to see in a single reference list of weapons profiles.

 

[Xisor_of_Karak_Izor]

Know's Arc

So, geometrically, which is what we're discussing, the arc is the edge (length) of the circle described, not the area.

Think Kepler's orbital laws, or whatever they're called: an arc sweeps out an area (in unit time, yadda yadda), but it isn't itself the area described.

So in this case, the arc is implied with the most obvious one (per the little cardboard markers), being surely the arc described on the edge of the base (as proxy for the 0-length[¿] arc at the centre of the model's base? God knows...).

But it's not exactly clear wording!

(But also, the arc isn't the area. It implies an associated area, but y'know.)

Slightly off topic: Vision & In the Dark

Wow, it'd be fun to give models a "sight" value and a "signature" value, like in Dropfleet Commander?

Sight + Signature = "radius" for LoS. Say most models have Signature 8" and sight 16" (so a natural "visibility" of 24" vs themselves or someone like them), in absence of other confitions/effects. (Well lit? +24" to everyone's sight. Or something.)

E.g. A clod hopping goliath or stomping squat (or clattering click-clack Escher in those comedy heeled platform boots), would have higher signature (12"?), whilst a rustling breeze of a delaque might shave a few inches from their signature too (6"?).

Would simplify/unify things like Sky Mantles and Photolumens and Pitch Black and Hidden/Revealed whatnot.

But obviously make a whole lot of *other* issues for complexity.

Might be worth it though for a mechanism to reign in incidental shooting and buff up "incidental" melee effectivness?