N18 Collected Errors/Typos in the N21 Rulebook (Hive War)

TopsyKretts

Hive Lord
Honored Tribesman
Dec 29, 2017
5,906
6,018
193
Norway
The 4th rulebook (N21), declared to include all erratas and updates. Let's have a closer look and see what that means.

Previous discussions:


A summary of various findings (contributed by several yaktribe champions).

INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL CONFLICTS
  • Stiletto knife has Str S (p92) and +1 to hit (p93).
    • Comment: GW really love to put Str characteristic on some Toxin weapons. This is and old classic they can never get rid of. And it is a long time ago since it lost the +1 to hit. This must be a running joke by GW...

EXTERNAL CONFLICTS (CONFLICT WITH PREVIOUS PUBLICATIONS)
  • Mind the Door (p87) inflicts a S3 D2 hit.
    • Comment: Is this an update to the rules? Used to be automatic wound with D3 and no saves allowed.
  • Delaque Autopistol (p58) costs 10 credits instead of 5 (GotU).
    • Comment: Won't know if this is an error or intentional update until House of Shadows.
  • Only Cawdor & Orlock have Dumdum bullets for stub gun.
    • Comment: Why?
  • Booby traps (p79): Can also trigger when ending an action within 2".
    • Frag: Lost Knockback.
    • Melta: Changed to Pitfall marker.
    • Gas: 2D6" range.
      • Comment: Looks like reverting back to N17 traps?
  • Pitch Black doesn't prevent charges.
    • Comment: If intentional, this is a huge change in balance!
  • Pitch Black doesn't affect Refractor Field.
    • Comment: Probably because Fields doesn't exist in the book.
ERRORS
  • Cawdor fighting knife cost 55 (p78).
    • Comment: Why copy-paste the rules that is copied instead of retyping, then getting errors like '55' instead of '15'?
  • Grav pistol got AP-1 and Graviton Pulse.
    • Comment: Why?
  • Flechette pistol - solid (p93): Got AP 3.
    • Comment: Correct AP is '-'.
NOTES
  • Van Saar has the Laspistol/meltagun combi (N20) instead of the original lasgun/meltagun combi (N18). The cost is however 120 (N18), not 130 (N20).
    • Comment: The gang rules (costs, stats, weapons) seem to be mainly copied from N18 Gangs of the Underhive (GotU), but with some new updates like switching from lasgun to laspistol for this combi weapon. Most probably it always was a laspistol, but got printed as a lasgun by mistake back in 2018.
  • The 6 scenarios does not have campaign rewards (but do have limited "linked games" rewards). They are also closely tied to the content of the box (mat and terrain).
    • Comment: As expcted, these will not be profitable to use outside skirmish games (without some home brewn rewards at least).
  • Loot casket is modified, changing the distribution of the content roll and removing D6 credits rewards.
    • Comment: This is an simplification as Hive War doesn't have any campaign and therefore credits income isn't supported.
  • Reinforcements are simplified.
    • Comment: This is to make it easier for new players.
CHANGES AND IMPROVEMENTS
  • Sentries:
    • Automatically spot the attacked when pinned by a ranged attack.
    • Defines a sentry round:: “In these scenarios, the following rules are used. This is called the ‘Sentry Round’”
    • Raising the Alarm: “Once the alarm is raised, the Sentry Round ends and play progresses to the End phase. Once this is complete, the battle continues as normal.”
      • Comment: Looks like sensible improvements.
  • Dive (new skill): Can become Pinned for free after any action.
    • Comment: We are getting close to 96 skills, yet it was warranted to create a new one for this book? Possibly a preview of a new skill from one of the remaining "House of" books.
  • Grav Pistol (new weapon): 90 credits (Delaque only), short range 6", long range 12", +1 to hit short, Str *, Ap -1, D2, Ammo 5+, Blast (3"), Concussion, Graviton Pulse.
    • Comment: This was unexpected.
  • Grav gun no longer in Delaque's equipment list.
    • Comment: This was probably a mistake back in 2018 and should always have been a Grav pistol.
  • Tactics cards are "draw 2, keep 1" for the 6 scenarios.
    • Comment: Looks like GW finally caved in and learned from the community.
  • Fleeing the Battlefield is moved from the start of the round to the End phase (Cool tests for fleeing the battlefield).
    • Comment: This is an update from N20 "House of" books and was expected. It confirms that it's not an error but a rules update in "House of" books. This is a mostly inconsequential change.
  • Improved clarifications to Versatile (engaged if within vision arc and range, can always be used for reaction attacks) and Blaze (the activation ends after trying to put out the flames).
    • Comment: Always useful!

TACTICS CARDS
A special note for this one as it comes in a box along with a selection of tactics cards. Not usually something that's commented on in detail, but this time it seems like GW made the effort to update and fix 11 old tactics (from 2017).

CardOriginal releaseComment
Frag TrapN17 boxPlayed after deployment (instead of during). Very minor fix, hardly worth the effort.
Melta TrapN17 boxPlayed after deployment (instead of during). Very minor fix, hardly worth the effort.
Gas TrapN17 box (originally Escher only, now universal)Played after deployment (instead of during). Very minor fix, hardly worth the effort.
Beast LureEscher card pack 1 (2017)Played when activating a fighter. Very minor, hardly worth the effort.
...ClickN17 boxOnly triggers on an enemy Shoot (Basic) action. Huge nerf.
Lucky FindN17 boxNo change. Still unclear if it can be used with Scarce, Limited, Grenade or Single Shot.
Group TacticsN17 boxAll fighters must use the same combination of actions. Huge nerf. Also still unclear if these fighters can group activate subsequent fighters.
Blood DebtN17 boxSpecify what actions that can trigger this card. Failed to mentioned Shoot (Simple) however.
A Good DayGoliath card pack 1 (2017)No change.
Proper PreparationEscher card pack 1 (2017)Played after deployment (instead of before). Very minor fix, hardly worth the effort.
Last GaspN17 box (not to be confused with Orlock card with the same name from Warhammer Community pdf)Great improvement, no longer triggering on an active fighter going out of action.
 
Last edited:

TopsyKretts

Hive Lord
Honored Tribesman
Dec 29, 2017
5,906
6,018
193
Norway
That would make sense, if this is up to date with the changes from 2020 and onwards. Not wanting to get my hopes up, but this might be one of those rare books where we'll see more improvements than degredations. The previous rulebook (Uprising 2019) also had very few mistakes, but of course some very bad ones.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Space Truckin

TopsyKretts

Hive Lord
Honored Tribesman
Dec 29, 2017
5,906
6,018
193
Norway
I suspect we will see Cool tests for fleeing the battlefield moved from the start of the Action phase to the End phase just after Bottle tests. This is when the House books say these tests are taken.
You are indeed correct, N21 rules state that Cool tests for fleeing the battlefield is now during the End phase, according to N20 House of books.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jacob Dryearth

TopsyKretts

Hive Lord
Honored Tribesman
Dec 29, 2017
5,906
6,018
193
Norway
I'm not sure if it's interesting to post changes in costs and stats here, because this is essentially a different version of the game. This is a demo with stats and costs for weapons and fighters are mainly copied from N18 Gangs book. For example Goliath Leader costs 145 including Furnace Plates (N18) instead of 135 (N20). Van Saar Las pistol / meltagun (combi) costs 120 (N18) instead of 130 (N20), but is still updated to laspistol (N20) instead of lasgun (N18).
 

Jacob Dryearth

Gang Hero
Sep 6, 2016
1,239
1,677
128
To me, any differences in costs are inconsequential. The new starter is aimed at brand new players, and it directs them to the House books and Core Rules if people want to play more Necromunda. For all we know they changed costs to make a gang box as close to 1000 credits as possible, or account for a lack of an in depth campaign with a trading post. I won't concern myself as it is the same as Underhive vs. Gang War 1 in my eyes.
 
Last edited:

Jacob Dryearth

Gang Hero
Sep 6, 2016
1,239
1,677
128
So "...Click" only applying to Shoot (Basic) actions is very strange to me. This makes most heavy weapons immune, but not if they have a suspensor. Clearly this is not the intent. "...Click" is one of the most impactful cards in my experience, but it serves a purpose in stopping a single heavy bolter or plasma cannon from dominating the whole game.

The change to "Mind The Doors" makes one tactics card much weaker, arguably for a good reason (don't remember the name, the one that closes a door on someone). I have taken many gangers out with that card, and it began to feel wrong, like Dangerous Footing. I welcome nerfed doors.
 
Last edited:

TopsyKretts

Hive Lord
Honored Tribesman
Dec 29, 2017
5,906
6,018
193
Norway
"Mind the door" was very brutal, almost equivalent to automatic Out of Action. The new one is actually quite weak. It can still hurt, but I prefer it this way. Gangs are aleady so deadly in this game, don't need the terrain to do much extra killing.

"Mind the Lift" rules are not included, so they are as deadly as ever (basically the same thing as the original "Mind the Door" except for lifts).
 
Last edited:

KA7777

Gang Champion
Jan 19, 2018
356
451
68
Canada
Daaamn, 'Dive' is a pretty powerful skill (and complements the most boring/cowardly strategy, 18"+ range gunlines).

I kind of hope it doesn't make it into a House of book. My Delaque opponent already loved deploying long-range characters in high, unreachable spots and voluntarily hitting the dirt as much as possible... which is every second turn, using the core rules, I believe? With 'Dive' a build like that can stay out of sight indefinitely. :/
 
  • Like
Reactions: TopsyKretts

almic85

Cranky Git
Oct 30, 2014
2,365
4,253
163
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
I’m going to throw a few more changes in here that appear in the Hive War rulebook that aren’t in the official errata or mentioned elsewhere.

Sentry Rule change. Sentries now spot attackers if they are pinned by a ranged attack.

Pitch Black rule change. Restriction on charging fighters is removed.

Blaze errata. Blaze now clearly states that their activation ends after trying to put out the blaze.

Versatile clarification. A fighter is only considered to be engaged if they are within the long range of the weapon and within the vision arc of the fighter.

Versatile clarification. Versatile can now explicitly be used when making reaction attacks.

Web missing part. The paragraph describing how webbed works in campaigns is missing.

Reinforcements rule oddity. The Hive War rulebook states that the Reinforcements rule can be used in any scenario with both players agreement.

Reinforcements rule oddity. The Hive War book explicitly gives rules stating that d3 reinforcements for each gang start to arrive on the second turn. This doesn’t work with some scenarios that have specific rules for reinforcements such as only one gang getting them or a set number each turn.

Booby traps rules changed? Hive war has rearranged the whole rule from the previous rulebooks. They have also given specific rules to each trap rather than weapon profiles.

Frag trap rule change. No longer have Knockback.

Melta trap rule change. Reverted back to Underhive rules, I.e. place a pitfall marker.

Gas traps rule change. Change in range to 2d6” from 5” blast.

Pitfall rule return. Pitfalls are back baby.

I’m sure I will find more on another reread.
 
Apr 10, 2018
237
409
83
Reading
Some of those seem like welcome changes: The Sentry and Pitch Black tweaks in particular.
Pretty Sump-trip inducing for them to be in a boxed set not everyone will want to or be able to buy though. That'll become more forgivable if they put it in an FAQ, but I'm not holding my breath while we wait for that to happen.
 

TopsyKretts

Hive Lord
Honored Tribesman
Dec 29, 2017
5,906
6,018
193
Norway
Keep in mind that Reinforcements are only supposed to work with the small selection of scenarios in the book! It's rules for a boxed game, not the full game, and they bent a number of rules to achieve the goal of simplified rules for new players (Reinforcements, Web, Loot caskets etc.).

Some clarifications are nice, like Blaze and Versatile. I already knew and played like this, but it's causing a lot of confusion for other players.

Some of the other topics I don't know how to handle:
  • Sentry: Is this limited to the boxed game only, or a game wide update?
  • Pitfalls: One could argue these were never supposed to be gone, just accidentally lost, like so many other rules. It's good to see them back of course, but for me personally I always used those rules.
Reinforcements on the other hand is in my opinion clearly not an update to the full game, but instead a simplication limited to the Hive War box version only. What they intend is for players to mix and match any of the 6 scenarios with any special rule, similar to Open Hive War cards can match deployment, objectives, perils and scenario special rules.
 
Last edited:

almic85

Cranky Git
Oct 30, 2014
2,365
4,253
163
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
Keep in mind that Reinforcements are only supposed to work with the small selection of scenarios in the book! It's rules for a boxed game, not the full game, and they bent a number of rules to achieve the goal of simplified rules for new players (Reinforcements, Web, Loot caskets etc.).

Some clarifications are nice, like Blaze and Versatile. I already knew and played like this, but it's causing a lot of confusion for other players.

Some of the other topics I don't know how to handle:
  • Sentry: Is this limited to the boxed game only, or a game wide update?
  • Pitfalls: One could argue these were never supposed to be gone, just accidentally lost, like so many other rules. It's good to see them back of course, but for me personally I always used those rules.
Reinforcements on the other hand is in my opinion clearly not an update to the full game, but instead a simplication limited to the Hive War box version only. What they intend is for players to mix and match any of the 6 scenarios with any special rule, similar to Open Hive War cards can match deployment, objectives, perils and scenario special rules.

I do appreciate that some of the rules have been modified to work specifically with what is in that rulebook and specifically it’s lack of formal campaign structure, but it is a pain the arse because it further confuses what the actual rules are meant to be.

It goes back to each playing group then having to decide which of the rules are meant to be changed for a campaign and which are not based on their personal preference.

What is most annoying is that there are a number of small changes made for seemingly no benefit other than that they wanted to restructure or reorganise certain parts of the rules and they seem to bury some of the smaller but more significant changes (like the sentry rules and pitch black rules).
 

TopsyKretts

Hive Lord
Honored Tribesman
Dec 29, 2017
5,906
6,018
193
Norway
Yeah. It would be good to have a detailed discussion about it and see if there are any consensus. Hive War is a weird mix of N18 (old) and N20 (new). For example the gangs and gang lists are mainly a limited part of the N18 gangs, without any of the fancy new stuff from the "House of" books (N20), but also have a selection of updates from N20 (gravgun and lasgun/melta combi were probably mistakes all the time).

This is how I would judge the content, what stays in the Hive War box and what updates the full game:

Universal changes/updates:
  • Mind the Door is less lethal (however, Mind the Lift remains unchanged, so that's an unfortunate disparity there)
  • Fleeing the battlefield (this confirms that the N20 "House of" books were not wrong and that this was a stealth update in the previous 4 books)
  • Grav pistol (only available to Delaque, cost and/or status may be updated in House of Shadows)
  • Sentry (spot attacker when pinned, seems like an useful update to apply universally)
  • Pitch black not affecting charges (seems like a big change, would totally change the balance)
Changes only applicable to Hive War box:
  • Grav gun is removed from Delaque list (not really important if this is applied universally or not)
  • Dive skill (possibly a new skill in the future Delaque book)
  • Any changes in cost (the Hive War costs mostly follow N18, not N21)
  • Scenarios (these could be adjusted to work in the full game if anyone wants, don't see much need for it though)
  • Any removal of campaign components (Web, Reinforcements, Loot caskets)

I need to have a pdf scan of the book to investigate properly the other reported changes like Booby traps.

Other clarifications like Blaze and Versatile don't require much discussion.

And finally, ignore the most obvious mistakes like all the Stiletto knife profiles (should never ever be referenced from the Hive War rulebook). Arguably frag trap losing knockback is an error also.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: almic85 and Thorgor

TopsyKretts

Hive Lord
Honored Tribesman
Dec 29, 2017
5,906
6,018
193
Norway
How did booby traps change in general? I don't understand fully what happens if a fighter is hit mid-activation. The movement ends if pinned or seriously injured of course, but it seems like the fighter can perform any remaining actions? Booby traps in Hive War can also be triggered when ending an action within 2".

Looks like the booby traps are reverted back to N17 there? I have vague traumatized memories of a spiked 2D6" roll for a gas bomb, wiping half my gang. The box content dictates the rules here: No stairs or levels and includes pitfall marker --> Use N17 Zone Mortalis traps. N19 Dark Uprising box did include stairs and levels, and also didn't include pitfall marker, so it used the N18 Sector Mechanicus traps. A funny and bizarre insight into how rules are affected by product design and packaging decisions.

Tried to find the old rules for Pitfalls but don't have the N17 rulebook at the moment. The N18 rulebook however have several references to Pitfall, without specifying the rules for it 😆 Too bad we didn't track changes and errors back then.
It goes back to each playing group then having to decide which of the rules are meant to be changed for a campaign and which are not based on their personal preference.
I've made loud complaints about this, but many people reply that it's not an issue because the rules are "the same" or to don't mention it to avoid confusing or discouraging new players...
 
Last edited:

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
4,777
11,115
148
37
Sevres 92130 France
Tried to find the old rules for Pitfalls but don't have the N17 rulebook at the moment. The N18 rulebook however have several references to Pitfall, without specifying the rules for it
N18 rules for pitfalls were added back in the Badzone Delta-7 pdf:
Pitfalls.png


As for N17:
N17-Pitfalls.png
 

Jacob Dryearth

Gang Hero
Sep 6, 2016
1,239
1,677
128
I'm glad they rememebred the range was 1/2" when the Pitfall rules were updated, to keep it consistent with falling from platforms. They also removed the part about voluntarily going prone not risking a fall. This is also consistent with platform rules, but had created a situation where my Cawdor ran onto a walkway, dove for cover, and slid right under a guardrail and fell 2 stories!