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Shadowbadger

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Finally, the phrase Fallen Short, when capitalised and italicised sounds A Bit Rude.

I suspect it is like that as based on the thread it came from, Fallen Short was used to define the result of failing a charge, something which is currently not clearly defined in Necromunda. Defining it once then using it makes things much terser than having to say something like "unless the model fails to reach base to base contact" in every other sentence.

I am also an advocate of the 2/4/6 Flamer although I agree it probably does not need Volatile.
 

Anthony

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Autopistols
I don't have much of a problem with laspistols really. They aren't the go to pistol but they effectively have infinite ammo which I find useful for pinging off shots regularly, or if they're a backup to something like a boltgun. A -1 mod would be a pretty big nerf too since neg mods generally mean they're useless at that range until BS advances kick in. I think somebody mentioned giving them a -1 save modifier which I don't mind. That might make it more interesting if you know you're dealing with outlanders, plus they'd then conform with their bigger brother.

Fast Shot
If I recall this was a rules lawyering issue with heavy weapons and overwatch? Something like shooting on overwatch isn't technically your turn so the model cannot have moved "that turn"? Would using the Rapid Fire text for the heavy weapons resolve this ("If the model doesn't move in his movement phase then")?

Hand Flamers
Well it wouldn't resolve the original issue of the auto-hit being just too useful, particularly for Juves/Scavvies. If you wanted to keep the auo-hit then you'd need some major nerfing elsewhere, such as price, volatile, etc. Also ideally a volatile rule should conform with dum-dums and/or exterminators otherwise you have a situation where three differing rules exist to represent a very similar function.

Overwatch Hits Against Charging Targets
Yeah the -1 caveat from failed charges is already in the NCE. In regard to chargers ignoring pinning, thematically I'm much more in favour of some variation of just counting chargers as fleeting. The fluff makes a big deal of how gangers survive by relying on their wits and guile, so the thought of Juves unflinchingly charging through buckshot doesn't sit right with me. I do think that rule would work really well for frenzied fighters though (+Berserker Chip and Berserker Charge).
 

Ringlord3

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I have to agree with Anthony on the auto pistols. If you give the auto pistol a negative at long range, your making it only really useful at within charge range. that and if you take the shot, its likely to run out of ammo compared to the las pistol where you can wing off shots whenever and not worry about running out of ammo. i think you should keep these 2 pistols as is, otherwise you will distrupt the balance again and never see autopistols except for flavor reasons. as it stands, i use both equally, it depends of the flavor of the gang as well as resources available.
 
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Shadowbadger

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My thematic issue with pinning on overwatch is that the shooter dictates where the charger stops. This will usually be out in the open where the charger likely will go down in the opponents following turn.

This is made worse by the existence of auto - hit weapons and to a lesser extent some weapons which can easily become a 3+ or 2+ to hit.

If wits are relied on over strength then surely a ganger is not going to dance on the spot as enemies fire bullets at his feet. He is going to either keep charging or return to the cover he emerged from, assuming of course he survives the overwatch.
 

King Redwart

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i think you should keep these 2 pistols as is, otherwise you will distrupt the balance again and never see autopistols except for flavor reasons

Seperate from how effective a -1 autopistol would be I couldn't disagree with you more. Just because you use both equally it doesn't mean others do. In the campaign I just played there were very few laspistols or stubguns and loads of autopistols. I know you can't base the whole of the Necromunda community on a group of players playing a single campaign, just like you cant base it on what/how one person plays.

I feel that you rarely see laspistols now apart from fluff, a few people wanting reliable back up and because that's what someones original metal juve model is armed with and they don't want to/can't be arsed with converting it.

I am a betting man and I would bet that if you went through the rosters on Yaktribe you would find that autopistol is king just like the lasgun was king before NCE.

I'm not saying that the -1 LR for the autopistol is the perfect thing to do but IMO the two pistols do need rebalancing.

With regards to the other stuff maybe we should do some polls. It's is a community edition after all.
 
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glitch

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I think somebody mentioned giving them a -1 save modifier which I don't mind. That might make it more interesting if you know you're dealing with outlanders, plus they'd then conform with their bigger brother.

I think this is a better idea than trying to balance the modifiers on range.

This is made worse by the existence of auto - hit weapons and to a lesser extent some weapons which can easily become a 3+ or 2+ to hit.

Every Overwatch shot against a charging target has an automatic -2 to hit at least, so the +2 of an Autopistol will only ever cancel that out, not improve on it.
 
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trollmeat

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In regard to chargers ignoring pinning, thematically I'm much more in favour of some variation of just counting chargers as fleeting. The fluff makes a big deal of how gangers survive by relying on their wits and guile, so the thought of Juves unflinchingly charging through buckshot doesn't sit right with me. I do think that rule would work really well for frenzied fighters though (+Berserker Chip and Berserker Charge).

If wits are relied on over strength then surely a ganger is not going to dance on the spot as enemies fire bullets at his feet. He is going to either keep charging or return to the cover he emerged from, assuming of course he survives the overwatch.

-_-
Leaning very heavily towards chargers not being pinned unless wounded. Especially Fluff-Wise. Unflinching? Perhaps not, but knowing full well that he is likely to get shot at, that Juve has made the decision to run into the open waving their inanimate carbon rod around with the intention of using it on that guy's head...
 
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Blood Donor

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...I think somebody mentioned giving them a -1 save modifier [to Autopistols] which I don't mind. That might make it more interesting if you know you're dealing with outlanders, plus they'd then conform with their bigger brother.

I think this would work very well - I know it was a topic that had been brought up but then kind of dwindled off, I was just trying to resurface it based on what I had last read. I think the Save Modifier would help give the Laspistol a more defined roll.

...[for Fast Shot] Would using the Rapid Fire text for the heavy weapons resolve this ("If the model doesn't move in his movement phase then")?

Sounds fine to me, was just bringing up that there was a wording issue more than a rule issue.


[Not including Volatile or something similar] wouldn't resolve the original issue of the auto-hit being just too useful, particularly for Juves/Scavvies. If you wanted to keep the auo-hit then you'd need some major nerfing elsewhere, such as price, volatile, etc. Also ideally a volatile rule should conform with dum-dums and/or exterminators otherwise you have a situation where three differing rules exist to represent a very similar function.

I agree something like Volatile would be needed in conjunction with altering the To Hit profiles. As Flamer weapons, they NEED to be able to Auto-hit in some format, but as common pistols they need be reeled in to be feasible - which is what Volatile would appear to be. @Anthony, I'm interested in the point you made about the rule conforming to Dum-dums/ Exterminators: would you be able to cash in on some more details from your take on these ideas?

...In regard to chargers ignoring pinning, thematically I'm much more in favour of some variation of just counting chargers as fleeting. The fluff makes a big deal of how gangers survive by relying on their wits and guile, so the thought of Juves unflinchingly charging through buckshot doesn't sit right with me. I do think that rule would work really well for frenzied fighters though (+Berserker Chip and Berserker Charge).

The original push behind this had been to remove an additional dice roll from the already tedious process. I do know that it is very often the case that in rules developments there is a genuine push for finding additional ways to employ Initiative as a character value. I think that the direction of the discussions on Overwatch hits on charging targets danced back and forth between doing Initiative Tests or just omitting pinning from charging, and the second very much so had the push of easy game play behind it - the K.I.S.S. rule was in its corner. I think refraining from stalling the process out holds golden to the process, and there really isn't anything lost by skipping the particular D6 test under these circumstances. Let 'em punch each other is my say :cool:(y)
 
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Jembo17

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-_-
Leaning very heavily towards chargers not being pinned unless wounded. Especially Fluff-Wise. Unflinching? Perhaps not, but knowing full well that he is likely to get shot at, that Juve has made the decision to run into the open waving their inanimate carbon rod around with the intention of using it on that guy's head...

"In rod we trust".
 

Shadowbadger

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Sep 22, 2014
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This is getting into one of those "let's lay hypothetical on hypothetical" situations. But really, why are you charging an area where multiple models have Overwatch?

The why is not my point.

Whilst charging into multiple overwatch is a bad idea, it does not make what happens when a model is pinned thematically correct.

I do not object to these odds of a hit, or any wounds. It is the outcome of the pin. I only brought up the odds to demonstrate that being pinned in this way is not an edge case.
 
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glitch

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Shadowbadger said:
higher BS is not uncommon

So you want to penalise models that have a higher BS because they have a higher BS?

The why is not my point.

Whilst charging into multiple overwatch is a bad idea, it does not make what happens when a model is pinned thematically correct.

I do not object to these odds of a hit, or any wounds. It is the outcome of the pin. I only brought up the odds to demonstrate that being pinned in this way is not an edge case.

Except that nobody really knows how they react under fire until they're under live fire. Perhaps it's better to think of the pin (in this case) as similar to a Turnover for that model as in Blood Bowl?

If your problem really is

My thematic issue with pinning on overwatch is that the shooter dictates where the charger stops.

Then thematically, people will take the easier shot over the more difficult one. If that means waiting until somebody is in close range (e.g. with a shotgun) then yes, they will do that.

Israel Putnam said:
Men, you are all marksmen - don't one of you fire until you see the white of their eyes.

What is the alternative? Letting the charger choose when their opponent takes a shot at them? Doesn't that strike you as odd?
 
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Shadowbadger

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@glitch, you are misunderstanding me so I will try to be clearer. I have replied on the overwatch thread as it and the other threads were made with the intention of keeping this one clearer. The only reason it had been discussed on here is that @Blood Donor posted what appeared to be the most favoured suggestion following that discussion on [that] thread.

That is not a criticism of @Blood Donor, I understand why he posted it here. It looked to me that more than 3/4 of the participants in that thread favoured some variation of what @Blood Donor posted.

If there is still discussion to be had I suggest using the overwatch thread.

edit: changed this to [that]
 
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Anthony

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I agree something like Volatile would be needed in conjunction with altering the To Hit profiles. As Flamer weapons, they NEED to be able to Auto-hit in some format, but as common pistols they need be reeled in to be feasible - which is what Volatile would appear to be. @Anthony, I'm interested in the point you made about the rule conforming to Dum-dums/ Exterminators: would you be able to cash in on some more details from your take on these ideas?
Well you'd have a situation where hand flamer's test to explode on 1-2, dum-dums on 1-3 and exterminators basically on a 1. It's not exactly clean rules design. Ideally it would be nice if they all used the same rule but I'm not sure that's feasible. Also using both the 2/4/6 and volatile isn't ideal either since you're heaping on another special rule onto a weapon that already has too many.

I do wonder if a price increase to 25 and the 1-2 test to explode would take enough of the edge off. You could still probably spam it but you're paying through the nose to employ a tactic that's not terribly unlikely to just result in both fighters being mutually pinned.
 

Shadowbadger

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I had said this in the other thread but I think it is worth mentioning again here. I do not think there is a large problem with the hand flamer mechanics, even before it got its 4+ to hit change in recent NCE. The issues are the result of the broader overwatch and pinning mechanics. Making any adjustments on a per weapon basis will just further complicate things and make it progressively harder to clearly see the actual issue.

I do not think the hand flamer needs volatile, or its 4+ to hit it received in NCE, or a change to explode on a 1 or 2. I think the cleanest solution is the 2-4-6 mechanic on its own which is a simple way to change the effective template size whilst using the current 40k template, plus taking a look at the overwatch and pinning mechanics.
 

King Redwart

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For what it's worth I am with Mr Badger on this. The 2/4/6 system with revised overwatch vs charging a target rules. I think that would be the simplest way of reducing the power of a hand flammer a fair amount.

There's a lot of talk about how someone could spam hand flamers now but let's be honest, how many people have actually done that or played another player doing that?

There are always going to be a handful of rules or areas that beardy players will try to take advantage of. Especially in a game like Necromunda. But it doesn't make sense to nerf somthing so that you severley limit its use just because there is the potential for it to be used in a certain unscrupulous way.
 
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Blood Donor

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I like these last few points, that the 2/4/6 and revised Overwatch should settle things nicely. I thought Volatile was a cool suggestion but as mentioned it created an out of rank manner compared to other add-ons, as well as a rules-on-rules pile.

***EDIT: Perhaps based on my liking the last few posts, I should revise the list I pitched earlier...

Autopistols - Change the Save Modifier of Laspistols to -1 so that it is not overshadowed by the Autopistol, allowing each of the pistols to be uniquely potent.

Hand Flamers - Change their To Hit coverage to Fully Covered Targets = Automatically Hit and Partially Covered Targets = Hit on a D6 result of 6+.

Heavy Flamers - Change their To Hit coverage to Fully Covered Targets = Automatically Hit and Partially Covered Targets = Hit on a D6 result of 2+.

Overwatch Hits Against Charging Targets - Add ruling that if a charging character who is successfully in charging range is hit by an Overwatch shot, they will not be pinned unless the shot causes them to be Injured.
 
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spafe

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I know currently Auto pistols are more common than las pistols, I doubt many would disagree with this. BUT, is that due to the reason for people buying pistols? People start up with juves armed with pistols, meaning that autopistols are a better option for them with their +2 and close range and no mod at distance. Later on in the campaign you already have autopistols from these graduates to hand out, meaning that the prevelance for autopistols over laspistols continues... I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but I would think that is the reason for it rather than people preferring their experienced ganger with a boltgun having an auto pistol rather than a las pistol as a back up. I'd rather a laspistol personally but if I have a auto pistol in the stash then jobs a good un, no need to buy another pistol.

Just saying, not really sure if I agree with nerf or not but I would think that's one strong factor for why they are more prevalent throughout a campaign, and I think that will always be the case with which ever pistol is deemed to be best buy for juves being the most common throughout.
 

King Redwart

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You make a good point Spafe but I'll add that if hand flammers are so overpoweded then surely more juves would be armed with them which would then mean that they become the most popular back up pistols later in the campaign? :p

No I realise that autos are 5 cheaper and already modelled on a lot of juve minis so this would also have a big effect on what you arm them with. Just thought I'd play Devil's Advocate i.e be a pain in the arse.
 
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