NCE Community Edition

Kon-rad

Gang Champion
Nov 11, 2014
333
973
103
Nagoya, Japan
Hey! Just played a bit of Necromunda yesterday, using an older version of the Community edition. We did a Good, Bad, and Ugly 3 way Shootout. The last man standing- the Goliath with nothing but a pair of big cleavers. Don't believe what they say about bringing knives to a gun fight...... Had a ton of fun and thought I'd better check to see if there have been any updates in the (years) since I played last. And here they are! Will have to give them a good read.
Thanks for the hard work.
And yeah, -1 sv mod on las-pistols. Why not? :)
 

trollmeat

Hive Guilder
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Nov 5, 2014
3,018
4,873
138
Has anyone reviewed Massive Weapons?

I've always thought they were pretty useless, and @capitan brought up a good point while equipping a Scavvy Boss in capitans necromunda.
Which reminds me, what's the rule when it comes to two handed weapons - can this be a massive club or does it have to just be a standard club in game if he also carries a shotgun?
Good point about Massive and Basic weapons together. It doesn't appear to be covered? If I was arbitrating I'd say counts as Encumbered (-1 to combat score), but Massive Weapons are already pretty useless so I'd just run it as a Club...
Does anyone actually use Massive Weapons?

I think that perhaps there needs to be something added to "Two Handed":
Two-handed: It requires two hands to swing a massive weapon so it can never be used together with another weapon. A model using a two handed weapon that is also carrying a Basic or Special Weapon will count as Encumbered (-1 to combat result), and a model cannot carry both a Heavy Weapon and a Massive Weapon.
 
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Shadowbadger

Gang Hero
Sep 22, 2014
724
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@trollmeat,

I can think of arguments both for an against this from a fluff standpoint. A basic weapon is not nearly as heavy as a heavy weapon, so would not encumber to the same degree, it could be shouldered or stowed unlike a Heavy Weapon, but if a model can use two hands on a Massive Weapon why can he not use two separate weapons?

When it comes to rules though I do not think a 15 credit massive weapon which limited you to pistols would be very appealing. My concern would be it would defacto drop the weapons out of the game. Personally I would allow a massive weapon to be used with a basic or special weapon, it does not quite sound right but it works.

I do not think it is fair to have a model with a Shotgun and Massive Axe suffering from the same encumbrance penalties as a model with a Lascannon and Massive Axe. There is a big difference in both weight and bulk in those setups.

Preventing a Massive Weapon being carried with a Heavy Weapon is imho OK though.

Something you could do instead is have a -1 Initiative penalty for fighting with a 2 Weapon when you have a Basic or Special Weapon. Having -1 Combat Score is a bit harsh I think though.

Also bear in mind you would perhaps need to clarify the wording of the power axe as well since it has two modes.
 
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trollmeat

Hive Guilder
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Nov 5, 2014
3,018
4,873
138
The addition of the Mighty Blow rule, where on charge you reduce opponents attacks by 1 (to minimum 1) helps balance the fact that a user of a Massive Weapon always has -1A, but it just doesn't seem enough to justify using one. Basically a Massive Weapon is +1S over standard close combat weapon/club, but I don't see a close combat specialist taking it, especially when that one Attack can be parried (possibly useful for someone who has A advances?). I'd hoped to make them more appealing/useful, but can't think of how.

(Maze, the Loneliest Minotaur in the Underhive uses a Massive Chainsword, which counts as just a Massive Weapon, but he can use it 1 handed) :-D
 
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King Redwart

The Unpainter
Yak Comp 3rd Place
Apr 20, 2014
2,638
3,712
148
Balham, London, UK
I plan on giving all my Goliaths who are armed with basic weapons a massive weapon as they can't get the extra attack from two normal HTH weapons. The only practical choices for them are a sword, flail/chain or a massive weapon. Sword is probably the best rules wise. Chain/flail possibly because it can't be parried but if your model is armed with a basic or special (or heavy) then there's no reason to take a club over a massive club (ok there's the negative aspect when combat is a draw). Plus it's fluffy for Goliaths. So yeah massive wespons are quite niche. The only time I would consider giving a combat specialist a massive weapon is when they have A3.
 

Blood Donor

Hive Dweller
Tribe Council
Aug 23, 2011
3,503
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Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
yaktribe.games
I would certainly not penalize massive weapons - they are hardly a top consideration when equipping a gang, let alone being abused/ causing issues. If anything, they are still weak. Massive Blow helps, but does not independently solve what keeps them behind the likes of swords or clubs. @King Redwart displays the when and where equipping characters with massive weapons can be used without losing too much by not choosing another option.
 
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ntw3001

Gang Hero
Feb 17, 2011
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Essex, UK
Mighty Blow is fine, but I don't think it's enough to save massive weapons. The problem is that a 2h weapon could hit like a lascannon and still be less useful than a second knife because it's so much worse at winning combat. Mighty Blow goes some way towards rectifying that, but the fact it only works on the charge is kind of a problem. For basic weapon users they generally don't plan to be charging (they'd rather move back and shoot), and CC specialists still don't want 2h weapons. If they had 'can't be parried' and had the cost cut to 10c, they might have a role punishing CC specialists by cancelling out their advantages and forcing them to fight fair (although the fighter using them would still need to be superior enough to win the fair fight). But if they got charged they'd still roll over (2A vs 1A losing draws is not pretty; even with equal WS, if the massive weapon user rolls anything below a 6 they still lose most combats).

So you want to charge, but you don't want to move into charge range. So now it's a weapon whose best use is probably to stand with the lasgunners and pounce on anyone who tries to get in close. Or to give to someone with Sprint. Classic Van Saar/Escher weapon >_>
 
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Blood Donor

Hive Dweller
Tribe Council
Aug 23, 2011
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An idea I've pitched before on the topic is that anyone with a two-handed combat weapon that does not have a Basic/ Special/ Heavy weapon should still receive the +1 Attack Die bonus. Fluff can be bent to make it work (less encumbered and capable of making two swings), and it is a rule that helps bring massive weapons out of the shadows. Dead simple too. Doesn't make them awesome, but makes them more practical. Can't be parried fits, hard to block such a weighted attack with a sword.
 

ntw3001

Gang Hero
Feb 17, 2011
1,098
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Essex, UK
That would make massive weapons very reasonable. I still like the idea of a weapon that punishes opponents, if only because it's a bit different to the same +1A that two weapons would give.
 
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trollmeat

Hive Guilder
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Nov 5, 2014
3,018
4,873
138
Power Axe has "dual-handed".
One handed use is S(user+3) and two handed use is S(user+4).
Unlike Massive Weapons, there is no negative associated with taking a bigger swing with a power axe, other than -1A for not using a 2nd weapon... Would then add the +1A for wielding two handed from above?
...
"Massive Axe, Sword or Club" could be removed entirely, and give the option of swinging dual-handed for S(user+2) to "Clubs, Mauls & Bludgeons", why not? (because it would add an unnecessary complication)

Clubs, Mauls & Bludgeons
Single-Handed:
Strength (User+1).

Dual-Handed:
Strength (User+2),
Draws (half initiative when resolving draws),
Mighty Blow (when charging opponent has -1A),
+1A if not carrying Basic, Special or Heavy Weapon.


.oO(Ignore me, I don't know what I'm doing)
 

Anthony

Community Edition Editor
Jun 2, 2011
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I'm not adverse to changing the Might Blow rule if something more interesting is found. Isn't there a big thread discussing massive weapons somewhere around here? Might be best to move this discussion into that since there was a lot of ideas already posted in there.

I don't mind massive weapons being a niche weapon since I imagine that's what they'd be fluff-wise, and as ntw said I'd prefer to see them have their own character rather than something related to Attack bonuses. The dual-handed idea is quite interesting though. Perhaps something like wielding it 1-handed still gives you the +2S but has a big downside which wielding it 2-handed would remove.
 
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Blood Donor

Hive Dweller
Tribe Council
Aug 23, 2011
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+1 A doesn't fit Massive Weapons, I acknowledge that, but something similarly simplistic maybe? Cannot be Parried but I have an issue with that...

I would recommend including Massive Flails in the rules. You have Clubs, you have Flails. Same price, same stats. Flails have Clumsy and Nullify which balance each other out. You have Massive Clubs. Massive Flails is a shoe in. Same stats, same price, same rules. Except Massive Flails gets Clumsy and Nullify. The big thing in their favour is the amount of available Massive Flails in GW kits that are already celebrated for being excellent for Necromunda bits.

I only mention that because it is on point with one thing: Cannot be Parried as a rule for Massive Weapons would turd all over that. If Power Axes can survive without complaint as a two handed weapon where the only rule change is instead of an available +1 A you get +1 S - with no Draws rule - then should Massive Weapons follow suit? Otherwise Power Axes should fall in line with Massive Weapon rules? The whole thing is off.

Ditch Draws? Massive Weapons have the bonus of having extra strength over normal weapons, but cannot allow for the +1 attack die. This isn't a solution to balancing them though for anyone with a Basic/ Special/ Heavy weapon - they won't get the attack dice bonus, so now Massive Weapons become too powerful. Maybe Mighty Blow could only work if the character did not also carry a Basic/ Special/ Heavy weapon? It still retains that Massive Weapons would be too much compared to single handed weapons. Gawd, what a fine line this one rests on :confused:

What about keep all the rules the same, and change Draws to causing -1 Initiative rather than 1/2 Initiative? -2 Initiative even? Because at half, even a tie is going to be a fail.

I'm starting to sound like @trollmeat's frickin' echo... I don't know what to do/ what I'm doing. Actually, on that point, chin up troll. Chicks dig confidence, or at least the omission of declaring insecurity...
 
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jmw23

Juve
Aug 30, 2012
11
22
3
38
Maitland, Florida
Just a quick note on a typo I found. On page 27 in the description of the Caravan Raid, it mentions that the guilders hire local gangers. The text instead says guilders hire focal gangers.
 
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Anthony

Community Edition Editor
Jun 2, 2011
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If there is some strong reason to give lasguns -1 to armor, that's fine too. I always thought of that as a leftover from the conversion from 40K...a game where the -1 was necessary for the Guard to have any chance to win against Space Marines at the time. Lasguns are plenty good without the save modifier, and armor, at least in my small circle, is taken rarely enough due to loads of weapons totally negating the saves that this small adjustment seems like a good idea.
I've been reluctant to remove the -1 because it's strategically more interesting when confronting armoured fighters (assuming your gang hasn't maxed out on lasguns), and perhaps would lose a bit of character.

An alternative could be to remove their -1 and add AP rounds for autoguns. There isn't room in the Ammo & Gunsights page to add them there, but they could be squeezed beneath the Autogun entry. So either a -1SM for 5cr or possibly -2SM with an increased chance of exploding which conforms more with dum-dums/hellfire bolts. The issue I have is -2 seems a bit much and -1 somewhat doesn't feel remarkable enough to warrant adding to the NCE. You'd also still have the issue of autopistols being arguably better than laspistols, which the proposed -1 might sort out.
 
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jmw23

Juve
Aug 30, 2012
11
22
3
38
Maitland, Florida
That makes sense, though I find that maxing out on lasguns is usually the norm. For that matter, are armored fighters a big problem that need strategic options to confront? Most non-Spyrer armor saves aren't much to write home about...though we never used Arbiters. Weren't they all armored? They seemed out of place, so we never bothered. Anyway, it seems like most armor saves are from rare trade items, and the lasgun totally negates some of those. I guess Pit Slaves can get armor plates, though, frankly, they need all the help they can get.
 
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ineptmule

Gang Hero
Feb 17, 2011
1,023
943
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Muswell Hill, UK
Armour is a perennial problem in these games. In Necro it is rare, expensive, and the modest save you get from most armour items is negated by pretty low-level weaponry. Not to mention that even if you make your armour save, you are still going to be pinned unless you are combining it with some skills like Juggernaut and/or Nerves of Steel. (Which is why it works on Spyrers.)

In a game like 40k where you might have a whole squad of Eldar Guardians have to take a 5+ armour save then the relatively low chance of each save being made doesn't matter so much and you get a more or less statistically expected outcome for the whole group. In Necro it's usually single saves vs wounds at critical moments and so the low chance of saving feels like it's not worth the credits you invest and potentially the point of initiative that you lose.

I'm not saying Armour is worthless, just that I'd definitely tend to ignore my Armour rare trade rolls early in a campaign in favour of other stuff, which makes the save reduction on a Lasgun feel a bit pointless.
 
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jmw23

Juve
Aug 30, 2012
11
22
3
38
Maitland, Florida
I can't remember anyone ever taking Flak Armor. Tellingly, even Frag Grenades have a -1 save, making Flak even less useful. Are fragmentation grenades really known for their armor-piercing properties? Do they really need that -1? Removing save modifiers from various weapons like Lasguns and Hand Flamers (and perhaps reducing regular Flamers to -1) starts to make armor a little better. Actually, looking at the weapons table, it seems like the strength 4 shotgun shells now don't have armor mods...though neither does a Power Fist? Or is it just that every strength point above 3 is a -1 in the case of the Power Fist and Power Axe?
 
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Shadowbadger

Gang Hero
Sep 22, 2014
724
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I think the Power First scales with strength for save modifier, so it would be -5 with Strength 3 user, so no armour save allowed just special saves.

Armour is for most gangs in Necromunda quite poor as the only remotely decent armour (Carapace) has a -1 Initiative modifier, which means you probably need a model with a few initiative advances to offset the negative and make it worth while,
 
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