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trollmeat

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Are fragmentation grenades really known for their armor-piercing properties?

Most armour doesn't cover Jugular or Femoral artery, or any part of the head. Grenades function not only by causing an impact blast, but also throwing shrapnel all around the place, which act as flechettes tearing right through any body part that is exposed/not covered by armour.
 

Anthony

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I don't really mind that frags, etc, have save mods since they're expensive niche items. If anything I quite like the idea that just removing the lasgun's mod might encourage players to diversify their weapon choices when going up against the likes of spyrers, such as using shotgun bolt shells or boltguns which I don't otherwise use much. I guess it would make balancing spyrers and pit slave gangs slightly easier too since currently you have to somewhat half-heartedly take into account that some players are probably cheesing on lasguns.
 

dallo019

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A few scavvy questions. Can a scaly become boss of a gang? There used to be a rule saying that they couldn't, but I didn't see that anywhere. Is there anything to stop a specialist scavvy being given a scaly gun, as they are counted as a specialist weapon? I know this isn't the intention, but is it possible to do? Might be worth putting in a line explicitly saying scaly only.

Cheers. Apologies if these have already been covered elsewhere.

Dallo
 
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trollmeat

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@Anthony, could we have clarifications added to the rulebooks?

A Scaly cannot become the leader of a gang - "They seldom speak as their altered necks and twisted voice boxes have changed too much to speak human languages any more."

Scaly weapons may only be used by models with Strength 5 or higher - As the maximum Strength is 4, a model would require Specialist Skill and two bionic arms to be able to use them. "A fighter implanted with a bionic arm receives a +2 Strength bonus when using that arm."

...though the chances of a Scavvy getting two bionic arms is extremely low, and no other gang would be able to use captured Scaly Weapons "Only scavvy gang members can use the following items as no other gang would want to be associated with the much-loathed scavvy hordes."
 
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Anthony

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Rules seem pretty clear to me. Page 5 of the OCE cites only Scavvies count as Gangers so only they can become leader. The Specialist skill only provides access to the Special Weapons category, not Scaly Weapons.

Though that might make quite an interesting mutation: +2S and access to Scaly Weapons. Not sure if it would be a bit too good...
 
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Blood Donor

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A few thoughts for the NCE @Anthony, some of which have been proposed a while back, others that are newer:
  • An improvement to Massive Weapons: to make them more lethal without encroaching on the D3 Damage of Power Fists, how about make every successful hit from a Massive Weapon result in rolling two dice when rolling to wound, or alternatively allowing Massive Weapons to re-roll a failed to wound result.
  • Making close combat less lethal without necessarily stretching it into further rounds of combat, how about making any character that is defeated in close combat go Down rather than OOA.
  • To resolve the issue of Overwatch on charging characters being too overpowered, how about make it that any character that is charging who is hit but not wounded will not be pinned.
  • To dial back the most recent Flamer changes while still making them more balanced, how about making all three Flamer weapons (Hand Flamer, Flamer, and Heavy Flamer) automatically hit any target that is fully covered by their template, but then make partially covered targets hit on the following D6 results: Hand Flamer hitting on 6+, Flamer hitting on 4+, and Heavy Flamer hitting on 2+.
None of these offer anything too complex, and all of them present feasible fixes to the current issues.
 

Anthony

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An improvement to Massive Weapons [,,,]

I assume this is instead of the current Mighty Blow? I don't think fiddling with its wound rules will do much really since it's already probably wounding on 2+.

Making close combat less lethal [...]

Is there a particular reason for this change? I don't see an issue with how it currently works.

To resolve the issue of Overwatch [...]

I'm still favouring chargers count as fleeting to their chargee. Fleeting chargers is an issue that has to be addressed either way and this way kills two birds with one stone, as well I much prefer it from a fluff perspective.

To dial back the most recent Flamer changes [...]

Yeah I am starting to favour this approach. It wouldn't resolve the hand flamer juve-spam issue but I'd rather rely on players to not be cheesebearders than the current rules which are nerfed to the point it's pretty much useless beyond BS2 fighters. I guess in addition you could increase its cost to 25cr too. I can't imagine a miniaturised flamer would be cheap fluff-wise.
 
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trollmeat

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It wouldn't resolve the hand flamer juve-spam issue...
Pistols - Hand Flamer
Basic Weapons - None
Special Weapons - Flamer
Heavy Weapons - Heavy Flamer

Pistols - None
Basic Weapons - Hand Flamer
Special Weapons - Flamer
Heavy Weapons - Heavy Flamer
 
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Pistols - Hand Flamer
Basic Weapons - None
Special Weapons - Flamer
Heavy Weapons - Heavy Flamer

Pistols - None
Basic Weapons - Hand Flamer
Special Weapons - Flamer
Heavy Weapons - Heavy Flamer
Would you also Hand Flamers deny the +1 attack dice? That would be an interesting route, though having such a small weapon be so encumbering seems funny, especially with such a long history of being a pistol.
 
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trollmeat

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*shrugs* I can fluffify basically anything (justify with fluff) :-D

Fighting in close combat while knowing that you've got a such volatile little contraption strapped to your back would be reason enough for someone to be a little bit encumbered* by carrying a "hand" flamer, pushing it into the next category despite its small size.

*encumbered as in not giving additional attack dice if model has two close combat weapons, not encumbered as in -1 combat score for carrying a heavy weapon.

...but, I think some other form of limit would be required, rather than pushing it up a category, such as a line of text in the Hand Flamer description of ~"Nobody likes a douche who loads every juve in the gang with a hand flamer".

Why should everyone suffer when one or two hand flamers in a gang is actually pretty fun?
 
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ineptmule

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I'm still favouring chargers count as fleeting to their chargee. Fleeting chargers is an issue that has to be addressed either way and this way kills two birds with one stone, as well I much prefer it from a fluff perspective.

We eventually settled on almost this rule for the LAGGNOG house rules thread: chargers count as fleeting targets for the purposes of overwatch. Seems to be working pretty well so far. No game-breaking has occurred as far as I know and we've had several games played since the decision was made.

I was very much in the camp for chargers not being pinned if they don't get wounded but I've come round to this idea a lot more since.
 
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MusingWarboss

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You could make the hand flamer a basic weapon, rules as is for now*. Then add a modified one to the pistol list, a Juve Flamer, same stats but using the smaller template from the original game rather than the 40k size flamer template. (Added as a printable page to the PDF)

If you want to fluffify it a Juve Flamer would be a hand build device by a Juve, much in the vein of a cigarette lighter and a can of propellant and a trigger - highly unreliable - highly dangerous and a very short range!

It would mean those Juves would have to get awfully close and its a one-shot weapon so...

May not solve the issue but sounds fun!! :)

*I need to check but I'm assuming the NCE uses the Flamer template from 40k for the hand Flamer as a one-shot weapon. I vaguely remember reading it like that.
 

Blood Donor

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I think the ideas on Hand Flamers in the last few posts are very tangent-esque and can be cleaned with one of the original points I had made, but it may take me a second to get around to that. Here's what I have in regards to @Anthony's response above:

In regards to Massive Weapons, I think the issue had been that they only cause one wound per hit, and so were likely to perform with stagnation during close combat against multi-wound characters. However, I think this idea was pitched alongside a suggested buffer to number of hits, so without that there is still a good chance a character wielding a Massive Weapon can land multiple hits and gain the chance for multiple wounds. Not a good start, but I assure you there was some goodness in my last post :D

Making close combat less lethal by the simple change of defeated characters going Down instead of OOA is potentially huge. As it stands, shooting causes bottle tests, and bottle tests win games. Close combat however causes serious injury rolls, and serious injury rolls win campaigns. Since the campaign is so integral to Necromunda, this creates a de facto gameplay situation where the risk/ reward of close combat is a bit too steep early game, and so tactics are dominated by outside shooting. Level up, gain some credits, and the push for new equipment predominantly favours getting more powerful guns rather than more powerful combat weapons. Again, more outside shooting. By the time gangs can justifiably waltz in and provoke some fistacuffs, it is usually late campaign (and 12 rounds followed by a decision isn't as engaging as all the career fights a character could have leading up to that). What the Down vs. OOA situation does is promote a more diverse set of tactical options throughout the entirety of a campaign, because players can justify risking sending some of their mashers into the brawl more often. Since the game is accepted as favouring shooting throughout, this would be a functional way of balancing that scale - it gives the players the chance to outplay each other in a campaign the whole way through rather than trying to risk getting some rare chance to hurt an opponent's campaign longevity critically. Defeated close combat characters going Down instead of OOA promotes not only diversity in play, which balances the differing gang styles, it also allows a gaming group to have all of its members stay in the campaign longer, rather than just have one player succeed in the risk/ reward of causing a detrimental serious injury and take off in the league (while lil' spafey has to pack up his gang and start fresh in the LAGGNOG). This change has impacts within the social aspects of gaming groups far beyond its apparent minor changing of the rules.

Charging targets being fleeting is just piling on more modifiers. The better way of working the desired fleeting chargers against overwatch approach is by making the To Hit Modifier for Charging -2, and then remove any extra wording involved in saying that they also count as fleeting. However, while I think it is great that @ineptmule has been able to get some playtesting on this to prove that a -3 To Hit Modifier isn't too heavy, the real reason why the change should be instead to making "no wound, no pin" is for the Hand Flamer spam. The reason they can be so devastating when spammed is because they instant pin, not because of dealing out some hefty wounds or what not. Making new smaller templates is addressed by the required 6+ to hit for partially covered targets. Making Hand Flamers basic weapons is... bizarre to say the least. Great spitballing, but not a viable solution. Where the rule on overwatching chargers and the "no wound, no pin" succeeds is that it again promotes diving into close combat. Whereas an additional modifier just creates the tactic of sending a higher BS ganger up with the juves and putting them on overwatch to deal with the -3 To Hit penalty, what the "no wound, no pin" does is lets a player decide they want to risk making that drive to combat even if there is a Hand Flamer around. The only reason I feel compelled to keep pushing this idea is that it cleans up two problems at the same time, and takes Hand Flamers being an issue off the table completely. That means the 2-4-6 partial hits idea isn't clogged by juve-spamming Hand Flamers anymore, and there doesn't need to be some bizarre rules for making Hand Flamers harder to come by (which is about as appealing as paying $10 to watch a boxing match in a bar that smells like Axe and dry farts surrounded by obnoxious bro-douches). It's new and different compared to the standard Hit Modifier train of thought, but it takes broken mechanics and fixes them cleanly.
 
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Anthony

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I'd recommend you make a new thread about HtH models not going auto-OOA as it's an interesting suggestion that I'd like to hear wider discussion on and is also applicable to the official rules. My initial impressions are I do like that in HtH vs HtH fights it would be less of a bloodbath, though it might just prolong games as fighters waste turns mopping up and in the case of HtH vs Shooting orientated fights it would benefit the latter quite a lot, both in terms of suffering less serious injuries and also the threat of HtH (and in particular it's serious injuries) is sometimes enough to provoke a voluntarily bottle.

I really disagree that the "no wound, no pin" is a clean solution. First you have to cram a paragraph into the Overwatch section explaining it and clarifying some interactions, such as on fire and gas. You create weird fluff situations where juves are ignoring point blank shotgun hits but in every other life or death situation the 'drop like a potato sack' pinning rules apply. And you have to somehow word the fleeting target rules in such a way that chargers can't benefit from it, even though fluff-wise there are situations where they should.

Comparatively, saying chargers count as fleeting to their chargee is one line and conforms with the established narrative that gangs use their wits and guile to mitigate getting shot.

I'm not convinced hand flamer spam is such a huge issue that it's worth rewriting a core function of the game. The change in fleeting would basically give them a 4+ special save against juve spam. If a player decides to give half their gang hand flamers then they're expending credits, rare rolls, inflating their gang rating (especially if their cost is increased) and it's kind of the point of flamers. It's also a tactic that can be dealt with by baiting the overwatchers.
 

ineptmule

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I used to be a devotee of the 'no wound no pin' fix but my group decided on the fleeting target fix, we've played with it a little, and I'm now happy to put myself in that camp. It feels elegant and fits with the fluff. The boosts that it provides to the skills in the stealth table work thematically as well as making some of the more edge-case ones (Sneak Up in particular) have an extra dimension to their utility.
 
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Blood Donor

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...The change in fleeting would basically give them a 4+ special save against juve spam [of Hand Flamers]...

I'm not sure I follow this part. Is there special rules for a save in this instance against template weapons??

I do acknowledge that it would take some wordiness to deal with all the additions, and perhaps yes this would ultimately sink the no wound no pin idea. My main motivation for it was that the Hand Flamer-Juve spam ideas were getting wild, but alternatively if it could be worked somehow it would be nice if there were some clean way of making Hand Flamers have some sort of pinning related clause from Overwatch. If this situation were taken care of, then I would agree absolutely that the chargers-as-fleeting-targets would be perfect.

In regards to the Characters Defeated in Close Combat Going Down Instead of OOA, it came from @Goobahfish's thread spitballing various close combat rule variations, found here. I could definitely give it its own thread with a more directly apparent title, and see what sort of discussion drums up. Ultimately, I think it won't make enough of a difference to cause an issue: there's only a 15% chance each turn of recovering, and it makes it easy for opponents during the shooting phase of their next turn to have someone set up to take shots at them if they really want to lay some hurt down. Again though, I will get a dedicated thread for that up and running.
 
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I'm not sure I follow this part. Is there special rules for a save in this instance against template weapons??
I think Anthony's saying that the test to react in time to the charger is like having a save of sorts - fleeting targets require an initiative test to be passed in order to shoot them with Overrwatch, so making chargers fleeting gives them a chance at not being shot at by the target at all. (It also makes Initiative more important.)
 

Blood Donor

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I had spaced on the inclusion of the Initiative Test. This is actually much better than a special save then, as it does mean that no weapons are auto-pinning. Okay so apologies for my unnecessary conviction on proposing to completely rewriting the pinning rules for the game...

Really then the only thing from what I had posted for suggestions up higher that warrants even a moments thought would be the Down vs. OOA...
 
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