N18 Compendium YAQ (N18)

[Thorgor]

Yes, and a very interesting one at that!
Not that I care much about TGB itself, but I think this change can be used to understand how close combat is supposed to work. And if we can solve that mystery, then I may get a renewed interest in this ruleset.

One of my previous reasons for believing attack dice were resolved one at a time was that TGB (the only other 'normal' source of multiple simultaneous attacks) was explicitly resolved sequentially.
But now, I understand TGB is supposed to be resolved this way:

1. Hit roll #1 (H1) and Hit roll #2 (H2) are rolled simultaneously (the result of H1 cannot influence H2, and vice versa)
2. The first hit is resolved:
   1. Wound roll #1 (W1)
   2. Save roll #1 (S1)
   3. Injury roll #1 (I1)
   4. Lasting Injury roll #1 (L1)
3. the second hit is resolved:
   1. Wound roll #2 (W2)
   2. Save roll #2 (S2)
   3. Injury roll #2 (I2)
   4. Lasting Injury roll #2 (L2)

Now, assuming this is also how it works for CC, what does it mean for our outstanding issues?

• Flesh wounds: if the targets gets a FW as the result of I1, then W2 may become easier as a result.
  
  
• Overkilling the target: if hits are resolved in sequence and an OoA fighter is immediately removed from the battlefield, then I believe every unresolved hit is lost. That means CGC cannot abuse Sever to mince everyone to death (they still get up to 2 automatic OoA results though) and Slaughterborn won't get them to lightning speed that fast.
  
  
• Displacer field: the displacing happens when the save is made so after every hit roll has been resolved. It may take the fighter OoA before every hit roll is resolved (if they are displaced off a platform)
  
  
• Knockback: knockback happens on the hit roll and those are simultaneous. The target is knockbacked 1" for each hit roll equal to or greater than their Strength (or suffers a hit for each inch they can't fully move), if they were in b2b contact prior to the attack, the attacker next gets the opportunity to be moved into b2b with the target again ( assuming no barricade is in the way — doesn't work at range with Versatile) but it's all or nothing, you can't choose to move only 1" towards the target if they were knocked-back twice or more. Whether or not the attacker chooses to follow-up, it doesn't affect the way hit are resolved.
  
  
• Concussion: also happens on hit so may or may not be applied before knockback (if the target is knocked-back off a platform and has to pass an I check). I vote it does because it's funnier (and more fluffy) this way. Definitely happens before displacer field.
  
  
• Melta/Sever: if you use one weapon with an 'auto OoA' trait alongside a weapon that doesn't have such trait against a multi-wound target, then the order hits are resolved is important as the auto-OoA wound may be 'lost' reducing the target's Wounds. I guess the attacking player choosing the order hits are resolved makes the most sense?
  
  
• Rad-phage: it's still a little unclear. RAW, if you are attacked with two Rad-phage weapons, you could end up with 2 FW. One could also resolve all the hits from a Rad weapon first and claim the FW is applied before hits from other weapons are resolved. I think the target is only supposed to get 50% chance of 1 FW at the very end of the attack sequence if they were hit with at least 1 Rad-phage weapon. YMMV.

 

[JawRippa]

• Flesh wounds: if the targets gets a FW as the result of I1, then W2 may become easier as a result.

Rolling one dice at a time for would slow down game to a crawl. Mass rapid fire weapons would be a nightmare to resolve. Even if this is correct by RAW+FAQ I'd rather fast roll.

 

[Thorgor]

Rolling one dice at a time for would slow down game to a crawl. Mass rapid fire weapons would be a nightmare to resolve. Even if this is correct by RAW+FAQ I'd rather fast roll.

Resolving one hit at a time allows for vertical fast-rolling (ie rolling for Wound, Save, and Injury all at once) instead of horizontal fast-rolling, so I don't think it makes such a big difference in practice.

 

[JawRippa]

Resolving one hit at a time allows for vertical fast-rolling (ie rolling for Wound, Save, and Injury all at once) instead of horizontal fast-rolling, so I don't think it makes such a big difference in practice.

Wait, how do you fast-roll vertically? You'd have to get different coloured dice not to mix wounding and hitting. Not to mention that some rules require you to roll even more dice in specific phases (like Rending trait)

 

[Thorgor]

Hits are rolled horizontally beforehand as they are made simultaneously.

Then all you need is one colour for Wound, another colour for Save, and Injury dice (which can't be confused with standard D6). You can do all that with the dice from the base set as they come in two colours.
Some of the rolls may end up being ignored (because of Power and the like, or because the previous ones failed, obviously) but that shouldn't be a problem.
For Rending and Power, either roll one extra injury dice of a different colour (that you will ignore unless the Wound roll is a natural 6, or the other way round against True grit if the projected Damage is 1), or just roll the extra dice afterwards when required (won't happen often).
Other effects like Blaze and Pulverize can also be rolled at the same time (obviously requiring a third colour of dice)

There may be a few trait/skill combinations that makes it really impractical, but in the general case it should work well.
I guess it may take some being used to if you have never played a D666 system before, but it's really not that complicated.

 

[JawRippa]

Pretty much everyone in my group has gotten gang-themed dice and they use only them when playing Necromunda. Adding requirement of having extra dice is demanding. And accounting for every possible outcome is not intuitive at all.

And the most notable difference between vertical fast-rolling and horizontal fast-rolling is making the game more lethal with flesh wounds affecting immediate subsequent wounding rolls. And do we really want to make Necromunda more lethal?

 

[Thorgor]

Fast-rolling is just how you physically do things, it doesn't change how the game works. And if you fast roll horizontally, you also need differently coloured dice anyway (when using 2 different weapons in CC) so it's not an additional requirement. For vertical fast rolling, you can use one of the opponent's dice for the Save roll/extra injury dice, so there really shouldn't be any logistical problem.

I don't think whether or not FWs affect subsequent Wound rolls for the same attack changes much in the end, I'm just trying to make sense of the rules as the designer have written them and FAQed them.
However, resolving hits one at a time actually makes the game less lethal, in the sense that fighter will get less Lasting injuries (as you can't overkill the target anymore, only the first injury rolls that takes it OoA will result into a Lasting Injury roll — it also makes Slaughterborn less broken).

If you want to make the game (slightly) less lethal by resolving Wounds simultaneously, with the added side effect that it makes fast-rolling easier for your group, then by all means do so. But you should still resolve Injury rolls in sequence imo (even if you fast roll them).

 

[almic85]

Hits are rolled horizontally beforehand as they are made simultaneously.

Then all you need is one colour for Wound, another colour for Save, and Injury dice (which can't be confused with standard D6). You can do all that with the dice from the base set as they come in two colours.
Some of the rolls may end up being ignored (because of Power and the like, or because the previous ones failed, obviously) but that shouldn't be a problem.
For Rending and Power, either roll one extra injury dice of a different colour (that you will ignore unless the Wound roll is a natural 6, or the other way round against True grit if the projected Damage is 1), or just roll the extra dice afterwards when required (won't happen often).
Other effects like Blaze and Pulverize can also be rolled at the same time (obviously requiring a third colour of dice)

There may be a few trait/skill combinations that makes it really impractical, but in the general case it should work well.
I guess it may take some being used to if you have never played a D666 system before, but it's really not that complicated.

that seems overly complicated to just rolling all your hits together, then all your wounds together, then all your injuries together, and allowing the attacker to select the end result.

 

[JawRippa]

Also what if you reroll a failed to hit roll with a tactic or something similar, you’d have to reroll all the following dice. Even if it is intended this way, this is extremely cumbersome.

 

[Thorgor]

Also what if you reroll a failed to hit roll with a tactic or something similar, you’d have to reroll all the following dice. Even if it is intended this way, this is extremely cumbersome.

Again, Hit rolls are made before anything else. Rerolling a hit would be the exact same as what you are currently doing.
If you need to reroll a Wound, then you reroll the whole three dice (Wound, Save, Injury) that you just rolled together, and if you reroll the Save, you only need to reroll the Save and Injury dice. It's no more complicated than rerolling a XDY roll, and it doesn't happen that often.

You seem to want it to be complicated, or time consuming, when it's really not that bad. I get you are used to one way of doing things and you'd rather not learn another one (especially since it doesn't change much in the end), and that's alright.

 

[JawRippa]

Thing is, it does change it in the end quite significantly. Scattershot becomes very deadly for example, if every pellet could reduce target's toughness by 1.
Anyway, I'm not against the idea or your vision of it, it just seems like something not intended by GW (despite the FAQ stating it like this).

 

[Malo]

I don't get the clarification on TGB. It seems like they're trying to make it act like a single attack in total but forgetting that the pistols can be very different.

 

[kueppe]

Just because 2×2 is 4 doesnt mean 4/2 is 2 in necromunda. GW is bad at writing clear and consistent rules. In necromunda it is so bad, that RAI is giving u better results. If i dont know how to handle a rule, i always go with the 10 secs solultion. What ever comes up my mind in the first 10 secs after reading the rule is prob, what gw wanted to say.

 

[Thorgor]

I don't get the clarification on TGB. It seems like they're trying to make it act like a single attack in total but forgetting that the pistols can be very different.

Well, it's a functional change, not a clarification. They probably realized (because we told them) that the target would sometimes end up being Pinned and in cover after the first hit is resolved, so wouldn't be a legal target for the second hit. And they tried to patch that.
I don't get why the guns being different is an issue though. Using 2 weapons for a single attack happens all the time in close combat.

 

[Malo]

Using 2 weapons for a single attack happens all the time in close combat.

Yes, and there's specific rules for alternating between weapons and only once for a Sidearm. Your sequence of events outlined above for TGB seems spot-on though, preventing sequential hit rolls after each is fully resolved. Players just need to ensure separate hit roll dice pools are used to know which gun is which and how many hits (ie. Rapid-fire) each hit did.

 

[Jaraii]

Hits are rolled horizontally beforehand as they are made simultaneously.

Then all you need is one colour for Wound, another colour for Save, and Injury dice (which can't be confused with standard D6). You can do all that with the dice from the base set as they come in two colours.
Some of the rolls may end up being ignored (because of Power and the like, or because the previous ones failed, obviously) but that shouldn't be a problem.
For Rending and Power, either roll one extra injury dice of a different colour (that you will ignore unless the Wound roll is a natural 6, or the other way round against True grit if the projected Damage is 1), or just roll the extra dice afterwards when required (won't happen often).
Other effects like Blaze and Pulverize can also be rolled at the same time (obviously requiring a third colour of dice)

There may be a few trait/skill combinations that makes it really impractical, but in the general case it should work well.
I guess it may take some being used to if you have never played a D666 system before, but it's really not that complicated.

I actually like this approach, and will need to try it out. Seems like it would simplify the rolling. Will work nicely with the 2 colors of dice from the box.

 

[Jaraii]

One question this brings to mind, is who rolls the save? Traditionally it would be the person who's model is attempting to save, but the rules seem to word it as being lumped into the rolls made by the attacker. This would fit your vertical fast rolling, but goes against what most people are used to in GW games. How do you guys usually handle it?

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

When I play, the person who's being attacked rolls the saves.
You're right that that gets in the way of Thorgor's fast rolling method.

 

[Thorgor]

One question this brings to mind, is who rolls the save?

You mean, physically? That never matters (unless one player is using loaded dice, but then you have a much more important problem). I'd always use he most convenient/fastest method.

It does bring to mind a real issue with vertical fast-rolling though: if an effect somehow allows for a save to be rerolled, then knowing in advance the result of the Injury roll may influence the defender's decision to have it rerolled (if all you risk is a FW, you may chose to keep your failed save)

 

[almic85]

There is the same issue with any skill/ability/trait/tactic card that allows you to reroll a hit, wound or injury roll.

At the moment rerolling wounds and saves are corner cases but as GW keep expanding the rules it will start to happen more often.