Concerns regarding the Kill teams PDF

crimsonsun

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May 4, 2013
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So I was just looking at the PDF for Kill teams and as much as I can make out it seems pretty messed up and I hope its not going to be indicative for the entire system.

So as far as I can make out the game uses a version of 2nd edition 40k rules or those used by Necromunda which is pretty cool in itself, however it seems the weapons and Armoury for non Humans are copied from current 40K rather than created fresh, this leads to some rather large issues in terms of mechanics verses fluff. As an example a Elder Star Lance is considerably worse than a Auto Cannon, and a Dark Lance/Bright Lance just isn't in the same league as a Lascannon. Now with the power level involved it might not be that big an issue but its bugging the hell out of me.

My assumption is that those lists were thrown together quickly by someone with little knowledge of the 2nd edition rules and they are not made by the same team that has produced Shadow of Armageddon, hence there rather odd overall design, if not then we may have a huge failure of a product at a design level. I guess only time will tell!

Crimsonsun
 
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It does look like a bit of a mash-up at some points i.e second edition weapon stats for heavy weapons but at 7th edition cost...

... I would like to think it's a bit more thought-through. We know that there is a lot more armour in SW:A, so perhaps the reduced cost is to make sure power armour isn't invincible.

To expand; chaos marines in LRB 'Munda were 300 points for a plain marine with bolter. The same in SW:A is 155 (I guess so that you have more than 3 model teams!). And if we are letting people have 5 power armoured dudes I guess we need to dish out some cheap lascannons to even the field.

In terms of balance of heavy weapons it seems the lower-powered ones remain similar to LRB and higher powered ones are now a lot cheaper.
 
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Those points listings in Outlanders were not really accurate though, in fact they vastly over costed and under stated Marines in that listing. Put simply the fact that a Ganger could easily become more effective by a considerable margin that a Marine is utterly ridiculous and thus a Marine should have been stated like a 2nd Edition Marine Captain and given 75% of the skills in the game, along with Acid Blood, super healing and some traits to represent there super human reflexes. I honestly don't think they can be reasonably compared.

I was in a hurry earlier so didn't really expand much upon what I was saying, but it wasn't in relation to the items costs, it was purely based on function. For example; in 40k currently a Auto Cannon has the following Profile R48 S7 AP4 Heavy2 while a Star Cannon has R36 S6 AP2 Heavy 2. It may not seem like much but for this game these weapons have translated to Auto Cannon R48 S7 Sv -3 Dam D3 1die Sustained Fire and 4+ Ammo Roll which is pretty much identical to how it is in Necromunda to my best memory, while the Star Cannon is R36 S6 Dam1 Sv-3 1Die Sustained Fire 6+ Ammo Roll. This doesn't make any sense, the Star Cannon should have been shorter ranged, with slightly less strength but should be able to go though Terminator Armour as effectively as a Lascannon, also the Ammo roll is utterly illogical, seriously Elder having 6+ Ammo rolls is stupid, 2+ pretty much across the board should be in place to show how unfailing Elder weapons are.

Then you look at the Lascannon R48 S9 AP2 Heavy 1 and the Bright or Dark Lance R36 S8 AP2 Heavy 1, Lance. Which have been translated as R48 S9 Dam d6 Sv-6 5+Ammo compared to R36 S8 Dam D3 Sv -4 (Dark Lance) -5 (bright Lance) 6+ Ammo. These weapons aren't even close when in 40k the Lances are the better weapons against any heavy target due to there ability to ignore Armour beyond 12 making it far more likely to cause additional damage to enemy Armour. Again the Ammo roll is like the list of weapons was designed for humans using Elder Weapons and not the weapons in elder hands, they also have made the bright and dark lances different in effect when they are and have always been identical.

There are literally dozens of small oddities that don't make any sense, like a chain ignoring parries when an agoniser does not or Melt weapons causing 1d6 damage except of the heat lance, why have plasma grenades lost a point of AP in the conversion, an Agoniser 2 points, that Distortion Weapons cause the same damage as a Lascannon is utterly ridiculous, these are titan killers that are so strong they don't even have a strength value...

I could go on but its a rather pointless rant until I see the core rules because that way I'll get an indication to if these inconsistent conversions are purely down to the alternative race kill teams being rushed out, while the main book is more carefully designed. Time will tell I guess, though I'm still half expecting my Pre-order to be cancelled tomorrow by the retailer I went with due to GW being sold out without hours of the pro-orders going up (I tried online and locally at both nearby GW stores on that afternoon).
 
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Maybe its just us wanting these games to be something we are used to. I know that when old games are changed that little part of my brain that deals with nostalgia quivers and takes a while to settle down.

But realistically, change is always going to happen to some extent, and we either embrace it.....or set up a website to celebrate the 'good ole days'. I love having my cake and eating wait by being able to play SW:A and come here to talk about LRB/NCE 'Munda!

Blood bowl got away really lightly in it's most recent incarnation in terms of change. Even then, the NAF are not taking all the changes on board.

@crimsonsun ; I don't play eldar/dark elder so the inconsistencies aren't as apparent to me but it would annoy me if I had a history with those teams.

Edit; just seen terminator armour is 3+ on 2d6! Some changes don't make sense but this definitely feels more worthy of the name 'terminator'. Sounds like fun
 
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That's how Terminator Armour always used to be. I've done some research and it seems I am mistaken regarding Ammo rolls as they are made by rolling below the Ammo rating on 2d6 not above, though that in itself is somewhat odd when looking at the listings and the various ratings but its not as bad as I previously imagined. I also messed up a bit with H-2-H combat weapons as they obviously add the users strength mod so they have lower base mod than ranged weapons do.

Blood Bowl - Don't even talk to me about that stupid Pile On change, I'm so mad about it I've stopped playing BB all together right now. I really hate that those complaints about the OP nature of kill skills were actually listened to, forcing a nerf and the further empowering of elf ball. I personally feel its criminal that the game is still called Blood Bowl, its closer to Elven Kiss chase than a violent sports game now. :p

Your talk of change makes me wonder if you've sold your soul to the Chaos Gods? Personally I've always been firmly in the corner of stagnation and the unchanging eternity of undeath but each to there own ;). In many ways this change is very appealing to myself actually as its a massive step backwards in mechanics (5 editions in fact) back to the rules I far and away prefer. Sadly while 40k seems to be at least looking backwards for inspiration fantasy is utterly fucked and offers nothing but utter fail in terms of its direction to me these days, which is a huge weight upon my heart as I was always a fantasy > Sci-Fi person.
 
it seems I am mistaken regarding Ammo rolls as they are made by rolling below the Ammo rating on 2d6 not above, though that in itself is somewhat odd when looking at the listings and the various ratings but its not as bad as I previously imagined.
Given that a lasgun or laspistol has an ammo roll of 3+, I highly doubt you roll below the rating... ;)
 
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I never got into fantasy but seeing what AoS is in terms of rules, I feel for you @crimsonsun !

The Piling On change was knee-jerky I agree, but given overall mechanics BB got off very lightly in comparison I think.

In terms of change, my soul is definitely becoming tainted! But it's close enough to the original for me to be happy and is well balanced by the fact that we get a fresh influx of players (opponents!).


The change to 2d6 instead of 1d6 is an interesting addition to ammo rolls and means that at worst, we have around 50% chance of a jam, as opposed to 80%!
 
Hey, is it just me or now the leader cant take special weapons anymore? Thats disapointing... to say the least!