N18 Corpse Grinder Chaos Cult Blood God Benefits

TheWilliam

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Hi everyone, another question about Corpse Grinder Cult...
Are the Corpse Grinder Cult automatically RAW favoured by the Blood God and do they receive the Blood God benefits from Page 9 in the Book of ruin?

Thanks! :)
 
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Bad news I'm afraid- The Favour of the Gods is earned by successfully performing a Dark Ritual post battle action. Corpse Grinders can't perform a Dark Ritual action (the ritual is Helot Cult or Corrupted House Gang only usually), so can't ever earn the favour of the Blood God in a mechanical sense. Yes, this sits a little weirdly with the "Chaos Favours" (they use favour as a term too much in this book don't they? ;-) ) table in the appendix as some results only work if you can perform a Dark Ritual. You could always talk to your arbitrator/play group about being able to run rituals as Grinders, but given their powerful reputation in the community it might be a struggle to win anyone over.

All's not lost though- you still have a gang of absolutely terrifying close combat monsters, who frankly probably don't need the extra help from Favour. Maybe think of it as the favour of the Blood God manifesting in other ways? Spooky masks, supernatural affects from skills and tactics cards, that sort of thing.
I do think it's a bit of a shame that no Ritual means less access to Chaos Spawn for Grinders, but Helots already have so few unique tools that I can't really object to them having more Spawn and their special rituals. You can also fill the gribbly-monster slot on the roster using an Outlaw Brute, which is what I did with my Grinder gang a couple of campaigns ago.
 
A Chaos Corrupted Goliath Gang is allowed to perform Dark Rituals and Corpse Grinders not? That's wrong.

Book of Ruin, First Chapter "Cults of Necromunda", (Page 8):

- Every Gang (Escher, Delaque, Grinder) can turn to Chaos if their player chooses. If they do, they gain the benefits detailed that follow (but are also automatically an Outlaw gang):

• Lasting Injuries may become Mutations (see page 11).
• The ability to perform Dark Rituals as a post-battle action.
• Fighters in a Chaos Corrupted gang never become subject to the Insanity condition even if a scenario rule or special rule states that they would.
• The ability to include Chaos Spawn in their gangs (see page 28).
• The favour of a Chaos god (see page 27).

Note that only Helot Chaos Cults gangs are permitted to seek the favour of different gods. For Chaos Corrupted gangs, once they have received the favour of a god, they cannot pray to any others when conducting a Dark Ritual


The favour of the Blood God reads as follows (Page 9):

Gangs dedicated to the Blood God thirst for murder and carnage. ... The most notorious followers of the Blood God on Necromunda are the Corpse Grinders, ... and there are even whispers of a renegade Goliath clan known as the Blood Forge.

Helot Chaos Cults and Chaos Corrupted gangs who have earned the favour of the Blood God gain the following benefits in their next game:

• Once per round, a single failed Wound roll can be re-rolled.
• If a Chaos Spawn is part of the gang’s crew, it gains +1 to its Strength characteristic.
• The gang’s Leader adds +1 to their Attacks characteristic.”
 
Hi everyone, another question about Corpse Grinder Cult...
Are the Corpse Grinder Cult automatically RAW favoured by the Blood God and do they receive the Blood God benefits from Page 9 in the Book of ruin?

Thanks! :)
It doesn't seem forbidden to choose a different God for the Corpse Grinders, but the examples and the flavor suggest the God of Blood. (Corpse Grinders & Goliath = Bood, Cawdor = Plague, etc.)
 
If I remember right, CGC cults don’t follow Khorne, they follow the Lord of Sinew and Bone (an aspect of Khorne but they don’t know that). So I’d guess if they see beyond that and discover the Lord is really Khorne, then they’ll become chaos corrupted and follow those rules. But that’s just my interpretation. You could also use that as gang flavor, I guess.
 
There is an explanation in the rulebook:

The true names of the Chaos gods are seldom ever spoken in the underhive, even by those in their service, and the overwhelming majority of Necromundans are entirely ignorant of the true nature of the gods at all. However, gangs and hivers alike know them, and their effects, by other names. For instance, Tzeentch is the Whisperer, the Watcher or the Dreamer; Slaanesh is the Pale One, Shadow Ruler or the Nightwild; Khorne is the Scratcher, the Red God or the Lord of Skin and Sinew, and Nurgle is the King in Rags and Tatters, the Lord of Shivers or Old Festus. For ease of use, the rules use the most well-known names for the four principal Chaos powers, though it can be imagined gangs refer to them using the titles above – if they dare speak their names at all!”


At the end of this wormhole lies... A ROOM WITH A MOOSE!
 
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A Chaos Corrupted Goliath Gang is allowed to perform Dark Rituals and Corpse Grinders not? That's wrong.

Book of Ruin, First Chapter "Cults of Necromunda", (Page 8):

- Every Gang (Escher, Delaque, Grinder) can turn to Chaos if their player chooses. If they do, they gain the benefits detailed that follow (but are also automatically an Outlaw gang):

Sorry, but you're not quite right there. If you go back to read the page you've cited you'll see it says "any of the six House gangs" can turn to Chaos, not that "every gang" can. It specifically lists Goliath, Escher, Orlock, Vansaar, Cawdor and Delaque. A House gang can become Chaos Corrupted using the BoR rules and gain the benefits/drawbacks you've listed (and the wording is similar for Genestealer corruption), but other gangs usually can't.

Helot gangs and Chaos Corrupted gangs each get access to the Dark Ritual action and can earn the Favour of the gods. CGC are in neither of those catergories, and RAW (and I'm sure it's RAI too) don't have access to Rituals or Favour.

Of course house rule things to your hearts content, but be aware that if Corruption is possible for non-House gangs to access it can lead to some very silly combinations. House gangs can still make some very scary models with Corruption, but do give up some powerful options to do so which sort of balances it out.
 
Is there any merit in redrafting the Corruption/Crusades/Redemptionist-pattern Acts of Faith/Spirits of the Wastes rules to unify them as a "Faith" choice overlay that could fit over the top of any given gang?

I feel like there's something there that could be quite compelling (and a wee bit simpler to organise, like the Alliance rules), without being umpteen variations of similar-but-not-quite-aligned rules that almost work together (but don't).

I doubt GW would have much truck with that, but then I'd have doubted a revised Rulebook would've been forthcoming too, so whatever.

Heck, if it was elegant enough, that'd maybe be good enough to earn place as a "widely accepted house rule", right? Opportunities, I'm sure!

Fine chance to bung "Techno Creed" into the mix, or the "Spideruality" angle that surely out there. Definitely!
 
Hi All, hi Bear, thanks for replying! I really want to be sure and appreciate your answer.
  • Would a Rulebook mention the Corpse Grinders as THE followers in the Blood God Paragraph (and display a Grinder next to it) if they are intentionally excluded from this rule? (Screenshot)
  • Did the Rulebook make a mistake letting the Corpse Grinders roll on the Chaos Favour Tables where one point is regarding rituals? (Book of Ruin Pages 106-110)
  • Why are the Corpse Grinders subject to "Festering Injuries" which is only available for Chaos Corrupted Gangs? (Dark Uprising Page 60)
  • Why does the Rulebook describe in so many places how the Chaos corrupts the Corpse Grinders when we shouldn't think they are a Chaos Corrupted Gang?
    “The perfect vessel for the corrupting touch of Chaos to infect" (Book of Ruin Page 14)
    "Through these offerings of corrupted meat, the power of Chaos began worming its way into the souls of who consumed it. (Dark Uprising Page 9)
Which is more likely:
  • We can't explain why the Errata hasn't cleared all these questions. The only gang called "cult" is a simple outlaw gang without real cult activities, and all the talk about Chaos is just confusing fluff.
  • Or the Corpse Grinder Cult is a Chaos Corrupted Gang and all makes sense.
(Sorry, if my post sounds harsh, but I want to challenge some points. This is a great practice for getting deeper into the rules :). I know, I'm the Newby bringing up an old topic, but maybe this means the answers are bulletproof)

May all your rolls be natural sixes.

cb8Mtun.png
 
Acts of Faith is Cawdor's specialty on par with Goliath's Gene smithing, Escher's chems, van saar's super bionics, Orlock's names and delaque's psychic powers. If you give that to everyone, you have to give something else unique to Cawdor to keep parity with other house gangs. Corrupted/Infected is already this category you ask for, personally I like to call it 'Tainted'. Crusade already exclused Tainted and Cults, so also sort of in the same category. Except they all work differently, but at least they are mutually exclusive choices.

I wished that psychic powers were streamlined in the same way, but the new rulebook didn't manage that, so I have no hope for this either. Would probably be a nice thing to do though.
 
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Hi All, hi Bear, thanks for replying! I really want to be sure and appreciate your answer.
It all boils down to N19 era rules quality which is the worst of all of Necromunda (and that's saying something). You grasp for artwork and fluff text, which could be helpful when in doubt, but I'm not seeing any doubt here. The gangs that can become Corrupted are spelled out clearly, no question about it. This is the consensus of the community.

Festering Injuries is a campaign special rule released at the same time as CGC, so naturally they would be included. Additionally, the spawn you can gain is for 'Chaotic' gangs (Chaos, CGC and Corrupted), not only available to Corrupted gangs?

I prefer to use the term 'Chaotic' for those gangs aligned to Chaos, and reserve 'Corrupted' for House Gangs that choose Chaos when becoming 'Tainted' (and I use 'Tainted' as a group term for Corrupted / Infected). As such, I would only call House Gangs 'Corrupted', not Chaos Cult or CGC.

About the Favours, sure it might be a mistake. This game has huge amount of mistakes that's never been FAQ'ed. Check out this if you want more details:

Dark Omens which is the Chaos Favour result mentioning rituals specifically applies to "Cult Demagogue" which is the fluff name of the Chaos leader. So not even Corrupted gangs could use it. I have no problem imagining whoever wrote this forgot or didn't know it applied to Chaotic gangs and not just Chaos.
 
Acts of Faith is Cawdor's specialty on par with Goliath's Gene smithing, Escher's chems, van saar's super bionics, Orlock's names and delaque's psychic powers. If you give that to everyone, you have to give something else unique to Cawdor to keep parity with other house gangs. Corrupted/Infected is already this category you ask for, personally I like to call it 'Tainted'. Crusade already exclused Tainted and Cults, so also sort of in the same category. Except they all work differently, but at least they are mutually exclusive choices.
I was thinking the Redemptionists-twist over Cawdor, rather than the Cawdor ruleset wholesale. (Even splitting the Redemptionists rules to fit he format. Not convinced worthwhile or easy, but my guts says: "Maybe!".)

But that's a fair point, I'd not really poked at the "Could you have a Tainted Crusade?" Conundrum in Temenos. ("No", easy question! 😁)

---

Re: Blood God/CGC - I've got to agree: naming them in the passage, even if not in the rules, does read very "We meant this, but typo-d it catastrophically". (Par for the course?)
 
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CGC not having rituals and khorne bonuses could be a mistake, sure. The 'clues' could indicate that this was the plan in early writing but changed later. Or who knows, maybe CGC should have had it, but this detail was lost when finished. Back in 2019, I thought CGC got the Khorne bonuses. But it has been discussed several times and others have convinced me it is not so after all.

Regardless, giving fluffy melee bonuses to an already elite melee team is terrible game design. From what I've heard, CGC are already killy in close combat. Having more killyness on top isn't something they or the game need. It is much better suited for someone that are average to give them an edge against average enemies.
 
CGC not having rituals and khorne bonuses could be a mistake, sure. The 'clues' could indicate that this was the plan in early writing but changed later. Or who knows, maybe CGC should have had it, but this detail was lost when finished. Back in 2019, I thought CGC got the Khorne bonuses. But it has been discussed several times and others have convinced me it is not so after all.

Regardless, giving fluffy melee bonuses to an already elite melee team is terrible game design. From what I've heard, CGC are already killy in close combat. Having more killyness on top isn't something they or the game need. It is much better suited for someone that are average to give them an edge against average enemies.

For me, it is still an irrefutable fact that the most notorious followers of the Blood God are the Corpse Grinders.

The rules have been written to an audience that was introduced to the first official Chaos Gang of Necromunda, the Corpse Grinders. They are the prime example of a gang embracing a Chaos God. They don't need to turn to Chaos like a House Gang, because they don't have this choice. They only exist because of the corruption of Khorne. They are not a small working-class sidenote like the Water Guild. They are what they are because of the Chaos.

The whole chapter "EMBRACING THE DARK GODS" explains what it means to be a Chaos Corrupted Gang, including all Benefits and Drawbacks.
This chapter is about Corpse Grinders, Turned House Gangs, and Helot Chaos Cults. No other gang is mentioned.
  • Making a Dark Pact - Explains how the established six House Gangs can also join the category "Chaos Corrupted". It is NOT defining what a Chaos Corrupted Gang is. Making a pact indicates a choice. And there are Chaos Corrupted Gangs without a choice, which of course are not mentioned here.
  • The Blood God - The Corpse Grinders are unmistakable right up in the center of the text.
  • Mutations - Corrupted Corpse Grinder Flesh is subject to Mutations.
  • Chaos Spawn - The boons of the Dark Gods always come with a price in the form of a Chaos Spawn which is also true for the Corpse Grinder Cult.
The Corpse Grinders are part of every described Chaos Corrupted Gang trait because they are one. Where does the text say something different? (really, where is the paragraph)
As long as an official rulebook doesn't say "Chaos Corrupted Gang = Turned House Gang" or "The Corpse Grinder Cult ≠ Chaos Corrupted Gang", the Corpse Grinders are a Chaos Corrupted Gang.



Btw, I'm having really fun going through the rules (and old forums) in such detail. :) And no hard feelings, I just want to know where the idea is coming from, that the Corpse Grinders are not Corrupted by Chaos.

May all your rolls be natural sixes.
 
If the term "Chaos Corrupted gangs" applied to Helot Chaos Cult gangs, Corpse Grinder Cult gangs and House gangs that have turned to Chaos, why do the rules repeatedly say "Helot Chaos Cults and Chaos Corrupted gangs" when listing the benefits of earned favour, or "Helot Chaos Cults, Corpse Grinder Cult or Chaos Corrupted gangs" when talking about mutations from lasting injuries and who can hire certain Dramatis Personae? If two of them are inherently included in the other, why list them separately and why sometimes leave out one and not the other? Also, if Chaos Helot Cult gangs are Chaos Corrupted gangs and gain the Benefits of Chaos, why do their Leader, Champion and Witch have a special rule that makes them immune to Insanity when all fighters in Chaos Corrupted gangs are immune to Insanity anyway?

The 'Embracing the Dark Gods' and 'Making a Dark Pact' sections establish that House gangs can turn to Chaos, and when they do they become Chaos Corrupted gangs. This is where the term is introduced and it is assigned to a House gang that has turned to Chaos. From then on, rules that refer to Chaos Corrupted gangs are referring to House gangs that have turned. Anything that also applies to Helot Chaos Cult or Corpse Grinder Cult gangs will specifically include them too.

While Corpse Grinder Cults are undoubtedly a cult in worship of some aspect of Khorne, that does not mean they have access to the Dark Ritual post game action or the benefits it has a chance of granting for the next game. A gang that doesn't currently have favour doesn't stop being a Chaos aligned gang so missing out on Dark Rituals and their benefits doesn't make Corpse Grinder Cults any less of a Chaos aligned gang than a Helot Chaos Cult with it's Leader in Recovery would be.