N18 Corpse Grinders Cult speculation/discussion

Baffo

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Soon enough we should start seeing 1 or 2 preview articles on the new Dark uprising box set and the new models/gang in it from the Warhammer community page, so while we wait for more details, let us have the usual round of random speculation and 'wish-listing' for the upcoming relese :D

The first thing most people noticed with a raised brow is the fact all the CGC gangers/champs seem to be armed exclusively with Melee weapons (almost all with Chain axes), with no hint whatsoever to any holstered gun or grenade on any of them. Only the Initiates (= Juves) seem to have a pistol on them (and even that looks unussual: Stubguns are usually some variant of Revolver, while Autopistols and Laspistols have a rather specifically shaped magazine and muzzle and these Juve pistols don't really conform to any of the above mentioned gun designs).

Fluff-wise we know (from mentions in previous books and Open days seminars) that CG are a Khornate cult that survived the forced 100 years quarantine of their hive (because it had been taken over by said chaos cult and riots) by cannibalism and apparently now they managed to break out of their forced isolation to spread their uprising in other Hives across Necromunda (from what I can remember, I might have some details wrong).

Khorne favours melee of course, but usually not to the total exclusion of ranged fire support. That said, the century of isolation in a broken down hive (I would guess most of the normal factories and infrastructure stopped working at some point with rioting Khorne cultists running around all the time) probably made most ranged weapons/ammunition unavailable and the cultists got used to a life without guns or explosives. That said, we already have some example of thrown weapons in Necromunda (Delaque's throwing knives for example) so it would make sense even for the CGC to use some sort of thrown weapon; they might use throwing axes for example and since the Chain axes they hold have a rather distinctive design, they might be a unique type of axe that can be used as a thrown weapon (I realise their shape is actually wrong for the purpose of throwing them, when compared to real life thrown axes, but I doubt that matters to the design team).
If that turns out to be the case, then almost all models shown actually have the option for a ranged attack (short range Sx2, Long range Sx4) and depending on the gangs average strength it might be almost equivalent to a Shotgun shot (if S=4 then Short 8'', Long 16'').

Besides that I would expect the CGC to be able to acquire guns from Scavenging and/or Black market trade, unless the gang is explicitly uncapable of equipping/using weapons that aren't on their HWL (similar to how Enforcers can't use weapons not on their list). Lore wise this could be justified by the cultists being too crazed/uncivilised to deal even with Black market traders and refusing to use guns, because to them it is a sign of weakness, or something along those lines.

Now, if we consider it is a Khorne cult that practices 'Survival of the fittest' in its most literal form and we assume this heavy reliance on Melee and possibly short ranged fire (in the form of thrown weapons and the occasional pistol on Juves), I would expect the CG gangers average profile to have Movement at least 5, Ws and Bs 4+, Strength 4, Toughness 3, Initiative 3-4+, Low-ish Intelligence (8+) and Leadership (7-8+), average Cool (6+) and probably above average Will (5-6+?).
The leader and champs might have their toughness increased to 4, but certainly at least Ws 3+ (combined with all the chain axes it becomes 2+ to hit in melee).

In general I expect them to have one or two unique campaign mechanics relating to eating (= gaining more income/XPs) fighters (from either side) that died during/after games (something similar to the Corpse farm Dominion territory perhaps?) and corrupting/ruining territories (based on the one reworked Settlement territory we've seen on the FB photos/teasers from Spiel).

As for their Skill tables, we can safely assume they will have the Savagery table (hinted at in the Book of Judgement) as one of their Primary skills, but we don't know for certain what their gang's other Primary is and what their characters might have as Primary instead of Leadership skills (if the well trained and uniformed Palanite enforcers don't have Leadership skill, I strongly doubt a bunch of Khorne berserkers will have them).
We know the other 2 Cults up to now have Ferocity and Cunning as their primaries, but I am guessing Savagery skills will be somewhat similar to Ferocity, so CGC probably won't have Ferocity among their Primaries.
On the other hand Cunning doesn't seem to fit the CGC, so I am guessing they have Combat as their other Primary (hoping it is not Brawn, that is a horrible skill table; more likely Brawn is the third Primary table for the Leader, instead of Leadership skills, like for the Palanite Captain - even so it is still a bad table, but this way at least the rest of the gang isn't burdened with a nearly useless Primary skill tree).

Now what will the Savagery skill table look like? As mentioned above, based on the name alone I assume it will be similar to the existing Ferocity skills, just more 'unhinged' in flavour. Thinking about it it might be somewhat parallel to the Palatine drill skill table (probably have one skill mirroring Hellmwar Justice to roll the Lasting injury twice and the CGC picking the worst result, except for them it might be more useful if they indeed have some benefit from fighters actually dying in battle), with 2 good skills, 2-3 situational skills and 1-2 semi-useless skills.
Some good skills I'd like to see in there are:
- A skill equivalent to Nerves of steel/Spring up, to allow their champs/leader to counter pinning from enemy shooting, or they will never reach combat. An alternative to preventing Pinning would be a skill that turned the Charge Double action into a Basic action (which would allow them to charge from a prone starting position).
- A skill to extend their charge range or make it more reliable (either make the Charge Movement stat + D6'' or roll two dice and pick the highest for charges, or simply they always count as rolling max Charge distance).

In regards to the models, I am still holding a little hope, that what was shown isn't actually all the options on the CGC sprues (lets assume GW is being 'coy' with their teasers) and the actual gang has more options in the box than just 'spam Chain axes on everyone' (at least give us a 2 handed great Chain axe as shown in some artwork in a past book), if nothing else because spamming Chainaxes makes them look a bit too uniform for a chaos cult.

So what do you guys think/expect/hope for the new Corpse grinders cult gang (or even what do you think might change for Gene stealers and Helot cult gangs now that they are getting an official book rules release)?
Cheers!
 
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Kiro The Avenger

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Im not so sure.
Previously, these reveals have always showed the full scope of the gang.
The fact that they all show chainaxes suggests that they indeed only get chainaxes on the sprue. Any other wargear such as chainglaives will be made through Forgeworld, I suspect.

Such a homogeneous gang is interesting and actually disappointing.
But then they also have a Juve model on the sprue. Which adds a little credence to the rumour of Juve models for the other gangs.

In terms of skills, we're almost certainly looking at some form of overcoming pinning. Since both not getting pinned, and unpinning yourself are both already covered by skills, I would suspect treating charge as a basic action will be it. This would also massively increase the threat range of their fighters to 2xM + d3.

We also know from the update to N18 that the Devs seem to largely overvalue the power of melee, their own campaign apparently is/was being dominated by a close combat Escher gang. So it's likely that they consider an all melee gang perfectly balanced.
 

Thorgor

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We know the sprue has, at the very least:
  • 2 initiate bodies
  • 3 cultist bodies
  • assorted heads for all those bodies
  • 6 different chain-axes
  • 1 two-handed buzzsaw-flail thingy
  • 1 sword
  • 1 axe
  • 2 different pistols
That's 11 weapons shown for a sprue with 3 goliath-sized bodies. The Goliath sprue came with 12 weapon options.
Don't set yourself up for disappointment.

I think the CGC will have Savagery and Ferocity as Primary, with Combat and/or Brawn as secondary. I expect Savagery to be mostly CC-oriented stuff, and to overlap quite a lot with existing Combat and Ferocity skills.
 

JawRippa

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Mar 31, 2017
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We also know from the update to N18 that the Devs seem to largely overvalue the power of melee, their own campaign apparently is/was being dominated by a close combat Escher gang. So it's likely that they consider an all melee gang perfectly balanced.
According to this (flawed) logic an all melee gang is super OP then.
I'm actually curious where is that statement about Escher gang come from. Was it some stream?
 

TopsyKretts

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I think the CGC will have Savagery and Ferocity as Primary, with Combat and/or Brawn as secondary. I expect Savagery to be mostly CC-oriented stuff, and to overlap quite a lot with existing Combat and Ferocity skills.
The new skills seems to be cannibalizing on existing skill sets then? They could be more of the same. The existing skill sets similar to ferocity are not very impressive. Are we getting more worthless skills, or skills that originally would be better replacements for the existing? We are going to have 60 skills. GW's plans for expanding Necromunda is usually to throw more of the same at it. More skills, more gangs, more brutes, more pets, more weapons, more tactics cards, more dice in different colors, more resources (territories/rackets), more sub-plots (house/intrigue), more campaigns, more this and more that.

I would very much want more quality instead of more content.
 

Thorgor

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I would very much want more quality instead of more content.
You and I both. Unfortunately, as long as the additional content they make sells out during the pre-order week, they'll have no incentive to increase quality (or stop producing more content).

I'm not convinced adding new skillsets to the game is a good thing. New skills tend to either overlap with existing ones, or do really strange stuff in an effort to avoid that.
There was something elegantly simple with the vanilla (and Oldmunda) skillsets system: you could combine any two existing skillsets to produce a unique combination that would result in a gang that played differently from the others. I think that adding gang-exclusive skillsets on top of that for Enforcers and GCG ruins it a little, and makes those gangs stand appart too much.

For the GCG, I wouldn't be that surprise if their cultists are strictly limited to close combat weapons (and maybe pistols, otherwise it would result in strange scenarios if an initiate (who can obviously equip pistols) is promoted to champion).

I also wonder what will happen to the Khorne-worshiping Helot cultists now that we have a dedicated Khornate Cult. I guess the two can simply co-exist (and fight one another), representing different ways to worship the same Chaos God.
 

Baffo

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I also wonder what will happen to the Khorne-worshiping Helot cultists now that we have a dedicated Khornate Cult. I guess the two can simply co-exist (and fight one another), representing different ways to worship the same Chaos God.

Well if CGC turn out to be really melee exclusive, Helot cultists of Khorne will represent the 'Gun-zerker' aspect of Khorne (more balanced/cunning, less Savage), while CGC will be the 'Axe-to-face' aspect:)

GW's plans for expanding Necromunda is usually to throw more of the same at it. More skills, more gangs, more brutes, more pets, more weapons, more tactics cards, more dice in different colors, more resources (territories/rackets), more sub-plots (house/intrigue), more campaigns, more this and more that.

Now that you mention it, I guess the devs could have added a new Alignment axis of 'Faith' with one or 2 more suits of new Intrigues that affect it: Piety/Faith (in the Emperor's cult) Vs (Chaos) Corruption and the new Intrigues would revolve around being a good Emperor's worshipper Vs a chaos corrupted devotee (speculation based on the blurb for the Book of ruin mentioning 'Corrupted house gangs'). If that is the case I would expect Cawdor to be always Faithful and the various cultists to be always Corrupted... One more such book expansion and we'll need a 3D matrix to track gang alignment trough campaigns (getting close to D&D alignment charts).
 

Kiro The Avenger

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I'm actually curious where is that statement about Escher gang come from. Was it some stream?
It was shortly after N18 came out. I believe it was on Facebook, someone asked why you could no longer consolidate within 1" of an enemy.
I think it was Andy Hoare that responded by saying it was to prevent a "melee snowball", as their campaign was being dominated by Escher doing that.

I have to agree with the desire for new content, rather than just modified content.
The things added by the Book of Peril are great. We need more new stuff to add flavour.
 
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Mr. Litotes

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@Baffo Thank you for the lengthy thoughts on how this new cult might work.

I've listened to a number of Voxcast episodes and I find them to be genuinely informative and interesting. They talk a lot about the creative/design process and GW. I don't know how other gaming or miniature companies handle their design process, but the GW seems good in my estimation.

That said, a melee-focused Khorne cultist gang seems like one of the least imaginative choices that GW could have made. Who wants this? It just seems like a terrifically boring concept for a new Necromunda gang. What about something from the Ash Wastes/Shanty Towns, Bratts, a Guilder 'gang', or just revisiting some of the very popular Outlander gangs? Of all the Chaos Gods, Khorne is the shallowest and most two-dimensional. Why focus on that? Necromunda just has way too much background and lore to roll out these new Cardboard Gore Cultists.

Other than that, the rest of the Book of Ruin seems promising. Hopefully, Helot Cults and Genestealer Cults will get a bit of love. The conflict between Imperial Order/Law and Chaos is supposed to be the primal threat to the galaxy. Now with the 40K timeline lurching forward with the Chaos Rift it will be nice to see Chaos becoming a threat in Necromunda and other centers of population. After all, the temptation of Chaos is strong, now stronger than ever.

Oh, and what about the Psychic Awakening? That seems like it could be an interesting route to take in terms of Necromunda coverage of this event. What about the damned Cult of the Immortals? They sound like a fascinating area of the lore that could easily have a powerful influence on Necromunda and beyond. Naked human Khorne Berserker wannabes? Not so much.
 

Jumbley

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That said, a melee-focused Khorne cultist gang seems like one of the least imaginative choices that GW could have made. Who wants this? It just seems like a terrifically boring concept for a new Necromunda gang. What about something from the Ash Wastes/Shanty Towns, Bratts, a Guilder 'gang', or just revisiting some of the very popular Outlander gangs? Of all the Chaos Gods, Khorne is the shallowest and most two-dimensional. Why focus on that? Necromunda just has way too much background and lore to roll out these new Cardboard Gore Cultists.
Well said, thank you for putting into words how I felt seeing the new gang. I'd be more excited to see an Ash Wastes/Outlands type faction, or maybe something Uphive-y like the Spyrers.
 

Spenson

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Feb 2, 2019
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It's a bit of a shame that the gang looks so one-dimensional in the first preview. The blood pact in 'The Victory' showed that Khorne followers can be a bit more than mindless melee freaks.
 
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I'm sure CGC will most likely be getting a Forgeworld pack like every other gang. They're behind enforcers so it might be a while.

I wouldn't be surprised by overlapping skills similar to how enforcers have their own version of over watch. However my hopes are up for stacking skills. Maybe some that do the same things as berserk or bullcharge but can be used together. It doesn't seem like the people making the rules are too fond of this idea though, seeing how gun attachments and skills don't stack (I don't remember the particulars).

The other cults getting attention is very exciting (as a GSC player). Will we get a genestealer brute?!?!?! I don't see them making rules for something they don't intend on making a model for "eventually" so I would think they would be restricted to already existing models. That or the abberant gets promoted/demoted to brute. Same for spawn.

The question is, if chaos DON'T get the spawn as their brute what would they have instead?
 
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Thorgor

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I think you should temper your expectations as far as existing cults (genestealer and chaos helots) go. Venators also "got attention" and it ultimately amounted to random price changes, removal of special campaign rules, and a half-hearted rewrite of their problematic legacy rules that solved absolutely nothing. They didn't get any brute, or pet, or piece of gear, not even a tactics cards pack.
If we are lucky, they'll have solved some of the cults pricing issues (they have items in their HWL that are more expensive than their TP counterparts).

That said, a melee-focused Khorne cultist gang seems like one of the least imaginative choices that GW could have made. Who wants this? It just seems like a terrifically boring concept for a new Necromunda gang. What about something from the Ash Wastes/Shanty Towns, Bratts, a Guilder 'gang', or just revisiting some of the very popular Outlander gangs? Of all the Chaos Gods, Khorne is the shallowest and most two-dimensional. Why focus on that? Necromunda just has way too much background and lore to roll out these new Cardboard Gore Cultists.
Yep, good point. I wonder when Khorne became so one-dimensional. When I was a yakling, he was way more interesting as he was not only the god of blood-thirsty berzerkers, but also the one of honourable blade-masters (in fantasy at least). At that time, Khorne did care where the blood came from, and slaughtering non-combattant in his honour was more often than not a one-way ticket to spawn-ville.
Also, those CGC guys seem to share a lot of design space (mechanically) with my beloved pit slaves, as they are a CC-focused outlaw gang. I hope their addition to the game doesn't mean we'll never get to see pit slaves added to N18. That'd be unfortunate.
 
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I think you should temper your expectations as far as existing cults (genestealer and chaos helots) go. Venators also "got attention" and it ultimately amounted to random price changes, removal of special campaign rules, and a half-hearted rewrite of their problematic legacy rules that solved absolutely nothing. They didn't get any brute, or pet, or piece of gear, not even a tactics cards pack.
If we are lucky, they'll have solved some of the cults pricing issues (they have items in their HWL that are more expensive than their TP counterparts).

I guess we will find out if they bounty hunters were the rule or exception. They are a special case in a lot of ways and can still get any gang specific pets

I don't think they will make any new products for the chaos and GSC but throwing in something from the already existing model line is possible
In fairness, bounty hunters basically got a whole book while the 3 cults share one

If we are lucky acolytes get a point decrease

Can't find the pictures at the moment but I do believe the territory card shown mentioned an "initiate" and the context made it seem like they were on the same level as a juve. I don't think a rework making the cults look more like a gang isn't far fetched
 

Thorgor

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Can't find the pictures at the moment but I do believe the territory card shown mentioned an "initiate" and the context made it seem like they were on the same level as a juve
I'm pretty sure the smaller CGC bodies are 'initiate' bodies. Other cults may or may not also have initiates now, we'll have to wait and see.
The card also mentions 'Juve or equivalent (as appropriate to your gang)', which means some gangs still don't have a rookie/initiate/juve type of fighter. This could be solely for Venators though.
 

Zamerion2

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Today on twitch they will comment and show things from the book
 
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reough

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Looks like mostly close combat weapons as expected, though without a deep look into the rules we can't rule out access to trading post etc. Initiates (skinny ganger equivalents) get infiltrate to help them get into combat, and higher ups also get extra help.