Curious about winning.

[BeardLegend]

Hello. I'm Beardy McBeard.

You may remember me from such campaigns as "Big Trouble in Little Dorrit" and "The President's Neck Is Missing!"

I am about to embark upon a campaign against friends of mine on a hex-based grid. The victory conditions are clouded in secrecy at the moment but will almost certainly have something to do with holding hex-territory over campaign turns.

I have never been particularly interested in winning so much as I am motivated by taking part and generating stories based on our ingame actions. That said: I do like winning and aim, in a loose sort of way, at that goal.

But over time, the more experienced gamers have overtaken my understanding and left me fluffing myself ... so to speak.

The overall concern with winning has grown as the group has become more experienced and I guess I am no different. This campaign will prove to be competetive and I intend to compete.

I have a rough 50:50 w/l ratio and would like to improve this. To that end I am writing a playbook for dealing with various gangs. I'll be running Orlocks and shall post the names of my rivals and their gangs later.

Leader will take a pistol and a special weapon, as well as a Hatchet.

Heavies will be H-Bolter and H-Flamer.

My concept is to create a solid defensive/counter gang who can jab hard and swoop in to maul when the enemy is reeling.

To anyone out there who has given the matter serious thought and wins more than they do not - I ask the following questions:

1. What is the single biggest factor in winning or losing a fight?

2. While a lot of emphasis is placed on the gang build and composition, how important is this compared to adequate preparation in deployment and maneuver?

3. How would you, in your own words and terminology ... and in as much detail as possible, say that you are best able to dictate the balance of the field in your favour?

Sorry for the lengthy first post. I have tried to be as precise as possible in my guidance of the discussion on tjis thread. While I am keen to hear of weapon selection and gang composition, I am more interested to hear people voice thoughts on how they conceive of their game outside of the oft-travelled road of stat comparison and optimal skill selection.

... though I concede that there are still valid comments to make in that area.

 

[enyoss]

I think you undersell your skill on the table - the rescue mission you played against me in the last campaign was a masterclass in getting into position while not setting off the alarm. Pity you didn't rescue the captives in the end though .

Anyway, I dimly remember I stole a shotgun off you once, so while that score is yet to be settled you're not getting any pointers off me (lot of good my advice would do anyway)

 

[Azzabat]

"Are you familiar with the works of Shun Yu?"


I have a very similar playing stance to yourself in that I'm much more interested in how my Gang got to where it is today, and telling the epic storey rather than winning games. I'm very lucky in that one of my main opponents also loves doing "after battle stories" so we can write about the same event from differing gunsights.

My view on your questions starts before you spend even a single credit. Know the rules, Know your enemy, and Know yourself.

1. What is the single biggest factor in winning or losing a fight?
A. Weapon choice and it's use.

Bring a Monofilament Blade to a Heavy Stubber fight and you're gonna lose. A good mix of weaponry, and a good understanding of its pros and cons is essential. I've beaten Van Saar who had vastly superior weaponry, and been beaten by scavvies with clubs. Knowing what something is good for, and crap for is essential.


2. While a lot of emphasis is placed on the gang build and composition, how important is this compared to adequate preparation in deployment and maneuver?

A. As I've mentioned above, equally essential. Personally I run a gun line (4 or 5 figures armed with long range weaponry) and a combat line (3 or 4 figures armed with pistols and punches). The 'Gunners' keep the enemy's heads down while the 'Runners' close in. A Juve with an Autogun suddenly goes from a 5+ to hit at long rang to a 3+ at short. And don't get me started on hand flames!


3. How would you, in your own words and terminology ... and in as much detail as possible, say that you are best able to dictate the balance of the field in your favour?

Deployment. It's all well and good deploying your heavy at high altitude, but if he can't see squat it's a waste of good credits. Likewise running your Close Combat guys straight at the enemy across open ground can be suicide if it's well covered. Better to take an extra turn or two to crawl in cover, or skirt round the side.

Don't forget another important factor ... the mission objective. If your winning conditions are destroy a water still, or survive a certain length of turns, don't wast time (and bodies) trying to make your opponent bottle, or killing his leader. Get in ... Get the objective ... Get out.

 

[knowman]

1. What is the single biggest factor in winning or losing a fight?

Focus and adaptability. What's the goal of the mission? How are you best likely to achieve it? That is going to change each turn and likely throughout your turn as things happen that you didn't expect or things you did expect to happen don't. So you need to constantly be adjusting your plans to the reality on the ground.

For example, I screwed up a deployment really bad one game - deployed first and basically put half my guys on the left side of the board and half on the right as those were the obvious fire/movement lanes. My opponent simply ignored half the board (the side with my one heavy on it) and put all of his guys on one side, which gave him a significant advantage in terms of shooters and threw all of my plans out the window before we even rolled a die. Stupid mistake on my part, but I knew my goals and adapted my plan to have my troops on the busy side of the board retreat while I scrambled to get my guys from the empty side into play. This actually worked out fairly well as I drew him back to a point where my heavy was able to get a line of sight and even up the numbers. I don't remember the game outcome, but it was unquestionably better than I had thought it was going to be after deployment.

These days I find it's helpful to have a notecard that lists the mission goals as well as any key rules I want to keep track of for the scenario. For example, in Gang Fight, if the losing gang has at least three enemy models taken out of action, and suffers at least three times as many casualties out of action as the opposing gang, then the winners can take over a random territory from the losers. That's pretty important in a campaign game and something to avoid, so it might be worth voluntarily bottling if you're getting to a point where that seems likely to happen. (and you can) But also something as simple as a reminder that if I'm fighting a shooting gang, not to get into a shootout with them unless I can set up smaller fights in my favor. Or if I know they've got grenades or a friggin' melta, just a reminder so I don't forget in the chaos and get someone microwaved.

2. While a lot of emphasis is placed on the gang build and composition, how important is this compared to adequate preparation in deployment and maneuver?

Deployment and maneuver will trump equipment every time, IMO. As @Azzabat mentioned, equipment alone doesn't win, it's how it's used. Some of that is bringing the right weapons to bear on the right targets in the right order, both on an individual turn and, if you're smarter than me and can do so, over multiple turns as well. (although your plans are going to undoubtedly change, it is much easier to adapt if you had a plan and need to adjust it than just coming up with a plan from scratch, in my experience.)

Someone suggested a while back on the forums the idea of breaking your gang up into smaller groups of 2-4 gangers. Maybe a single ganger with an autogun or ideally a hunting rifle to keep the Heavy Stubber company, close enough that most opposing gangers are going to have a better shot at him than your heavy, but not so close as to allow sustained fire to take them both out. Close-combat squads of a juve meatshield (or two), a CC-kitted ganger, and a flamer/heavy flamer. A shooty group of 2-3 autoguns/lasguns/plasma/bolters/maybe shotguns.

Within each group, movement is important. It would be great for the enemy not to have any shot at any of your guys, but that's unlikely, so you want to try and make sure if someone's going to get shot or charged, it's the juves or a hired gun. It's also important that you don't end up getting in your own way or killing someone with a shooter that you were going to charge, resulting in your charger being left in the open. So the sequence of your turn becomes very important.

3. How would you, in your own words and terminology ... and in as much detail as possible, say that you are best able to dictate the balance of the field in your favour?

Easy. Fair fights are for suckers. If you find yourself on even ground (or worse), you usually have either planned or executed poorly. In addition to worrying about your own movement, you need to take into account roughly where you're opponent is going to move on his turn and when he could potentially end up. Games aren't one big fight, they're a series of smaller fights. If you can get a 3 vs 2 advantage here and there the individual wins are going to snowball as you bring numbers to bear.

Also, I was surprised early on at how ineffective shooting in general was. There's usually always some sort of cover bonus making shots more difficult. Better to manuever and avoid getting shot at completely to get in position to be able to take a couple of clean shots the next turn. It's kind of like playing poker - don't be an optimist and count on good luck as part of your plan and you'll have a much better chance of winning in the long run.

 

[spafe]

hmm, well to start with, I'm glad Harry the Hatchet is making a return dude!

I'm gonna skip right to the tactics and how to win on the ground. I'll assume you still remember all those threads that have poped up about what sort of fire teams you want.

@knowman has touched on this brilliantly above, it isnta gang fight of 1 gang v 1 gang, its small interactions. So if its a dance, each dance is made up of a number of set moves (there are only 3 basic moves in a waltz I believe, a counter clockwise turn, a clockwise turn and a skip thing, I think that's what someone told me once), but the overall dance is these interactions seamlessly put together in a pleasing fashion.

So you have 3 sections, your skip thing, which is the long range suppression, it distracts, and gives you time to put together your other two sections... the counter clockwise spin and the clockwise spin, these two teams are wanting to close to short range, and have the drop on the enemy. a juve to soak/waste incoming overwatch is good for this. Use hiding, get into close range then pop out and blast. Ideally your skip section will pin/isolate 2 guys who your 3 can team up on and put down. At the same time you other turn section will be waiting for the same advantage and then can pounce. It doesn't matter which turn fits better at the time, as long as the dance flows smoothly.

To start with a shotgun and an autogun are ideal as 2 out of the 3 turn sections, with the juve making up final third. The juve in this mini dance is the skip section, causing distraction while the two turn sections can execute the dance to drop their opposites. Once you have a local advantage, the other side can always flow away if they are outnumbered until that local advantage on the other turn section can be brought across.

The trick is working out when the odds are in your favour to open fire.

My own words

 

[spafe]

oh, and of course if you go for a 12 man gang you get an extra 'turn section' and completely bugger up my metaphor...

 

[MedMos]

Focus and adaptability. What's the goal of the mission? How are you best likely to achieve it? That is going to change each turn and likely throughout your turn as things happen that you didn't expect or things you did expect to happen don't. So you need to constantly be adjusting your plans to the reality on the ground.

I would qualify this a bit further, in that you should be prepared to change your tactics to match the situation, but should always (very nearly always...) stay true to your strategy. The strategy is thought out in advance, and may seem to crumble under pressure, but you can't let panic/excitement/bloodlust put your strategy aside. Of course, for storytelling, you might want to give in to impulses, this is a different story. But generally, stick to the plan! Even if the means by which you aim to achieve your goal changes.

That being said: Squeeeee! Is this a new LAGGNOG campaign underway!? I mean... 'grunt', cool, a new campaign, might find the time to read some fluff. Whatever...

 

[enyoss]

I would qualify this a bit further, in that you should be prepared to change your tactics to match the situation, but should always (very nearly always...) stay true to your strategy. The strategy is thought out in advance, and may seem to crumble under pressure, but you can't let panic/excitement/bloodlust put your strategy aside. Of course, for storytelling, you might want to give in to impulses, this is a different story. But generally, stick to the plan! Even if the means by which you aim to achieve your goal changes.

That being said: Squeeeee! Is this a new LAGGNOG campaign underway!? I mean... 'grunt', cool, a new campaign, might find the time to read some fluff. Whatever...

Couldn't agree more.

When I faced off against the best gang in the last LAGGNOG campaign (not yours Beard, sorry ), I found that putting together a plan for the game in advance made a huge difference.

I thought about the strengths and weaknesses of each gang, and decided well ahead of time which scenario I'd play if I got to pick (I had lower GR). Then I planned out what I'd actually do on the tabletop if we ended up playing that scenario. It had to be quite general as I couldn't predict exactly what he was going to do (obviously!), but I found that at least having a plan meant I could direct his play towards what I wanted to happen.

I also cobbled together a much briefer plan for what he'd go for if he got to pick the scenario, and how I'd play to that.

I got to pick the scenario, and it worked like a well oiled machine. And spending the afternoon before the game sitting in a beer garden with pen and paper sketching out lines of attack and who was going to do what, was in many ways more fun than the game itself .

Not sure I'd want to bother doing that for every game, but at least it works!

 

[Alobar]

Dude. This is class.
I've always found you to be a very tricky opponent who deploys well and is aware of the angles. I think a 50:50 ratio is good against the dudes we play. whenever I've won its generally down to luck and numbers. Zero skill, and I know everyone would testify to that. I have no knowledge worthy of advice.

 

[FluffyBunny]

Well, if you're looking for tactics advice you've come to the right place. I've have numerous moral victories.

1. How many muscle skills you have.
2. Move to the wrong place, you get shot or can't shoot them. Buy the wrong weapons you struggle to hurt them, but still can. Deployment and movement is more important.
3. Charging in always dictates the course of battle.

Deployment and build determine your starting strategy, but this is a tactical game, you have to adapt. Like charge with 3 guys or charge with 4. Consider all options.

 

[Insurgent]

If you a committing to a campaign, play the long game. Your job isn't to just win games but acquire and work as many territories as possible. The most useful equipment in the game is the Ratskin map, and the Isotopic fuel rod. Obtain the services of a Ratskin Scout after your first game and start rolling for his territory search as soon as you can. Isotopic fuel rods turn trash into a solid territory and that free Juve is an essential part of gang growth.
Your territories are one of the most important parts of your gang and if you get Vents or Tunnels you will always have an advantage in deployment. Starting the game without one of these is actually a difficult position to be in. This means that the scout and the map are all the more important.

Part of controlling conditions in the game is choosing the scenario. You know your gang best and you want to choose the scenarios that suits its tactics and goals most appropriately. A big part of doing this is managing you gang rating to be as low as possible. Another important part is using Ratskin Maps and Scouts to modify the results on the scenario table.
~When I am playing against very powerful players I choose Scavenger Scenarios.
~When I have a heavy that has a high strength and damage weapon (Krak missile launcher) I choose Raids and Hit & Runs.
~If my leader and two gangers are ripped for HtH (two swords each) I pull an Ambush scenario. A heavy or a specialist with a flamer helps here also.
~I just try to survive Shoot outs. Pack it with Juves and hope your leader survives.
~Gang Fights are for chumps. Most players idealized fight is a Gang Fight, deny them this. It throws them off balance and many scenarios randomize or limit their troop selection.
*Shoot for a coup in a Gang Fight and take three dudes out quick with a special deployment of a kill squad through vents or tunnels. If you secure a territory winning ratio try to preserve it and play conservatively by pulling back into overwatches and heavies. Buy time and let the opponents bottle rolls take their course. It also helps to emotionally antagonize another player from a bad position into a worse one during a gang fight.

The key to getting good at Necromunda is taking the time to study the Scenarios. That is where all your tactics and ideas develop.

All this is geared to your third question and probably the best one.

3. How would you, in your own words and terminology ... and in as much detail as possible, say that you are best able to dictate the balance of the field in your favour?

 

[Meavar]

1. What is the single biggest factor in winning or losing a fight?
Knowing your strength and weaknesses and those of the enemy and using them.

2. While a lot of emphasis is placed on the gang build and composition, how important is this compared to adequate preparation in deployment and maneuver?
Build composition is important, but mainly because a different build uses different tactics. If you have a crappy build but play it to the fullest and play against a perfect build of the average tactician you will usually win.
The most important thing here is play to your strengths and if possible your opponents weaknesses. Keep your shooty gangers out of melee. Consider carefully what you consider a win, winning the game but having 6 guys OoA is not a win in a campaign usually.
One game I won I shot down 2 juves (not OoA) and he voluntary ran. I definitely won, but he considered it a win: He was an underdog and got shitloads of XP from the field, and could work all his territories. He ended up much better after the fight, for even with the 2 kills he got over twice the amount of xp as I did, just because of gang rating.

3. How would you, in your own words and terminology ... and in as much detail as possible, say that you are best able to dictate the balance of the field in your favour?
The most important thing: patience
second most important thing: thinking ahead.

Consider what you want to happen. Then do things to make sure it happens. Don't think I want this guy in combat with his heavy (why would you want that?) You probably want the heavy out of action or at least not shooting you, getting your guy in combat is thus only a means to an end. If you get a good shot at the heavy that will also be fine.
As people mentioned do not fight fair, if you have a charge with 1 guy but then end up against 3 that will go wrong, wait the time necessary to have 5 of your guys against their 3.
Also as most people mention they often use groups of 2 or 3 gangers, disrupt that. Pin one of them if they are no immediate threat, then 50% chance they either have to split up or wait. If it happens to you unless are in a dangerous position, waiting is usually better. Keep your guys together, it helps to escape pinning and alone you cannot outnumber the enemy. On the other hand, a little risk can go a long way. Standing in the open to have a clear shot with a pistol at short range at the enemy heavy is usually worth it. Assuming you can follow trough the next round with your complete warband. If it is just a single ganger who will then be shot by half the enemy warband, without being able to shoot them next turn, then it is not.

Consider threat from each enemy, they can usually move 4 and shoot or charge 8. Consider who can be a target, not just this turn but also after his movement and also in your next turn. If possible also in his second turn. Try to keep your gangers close enough together that they can support each other in as many turns as you can think ahead. Unless there is little risk and huge reward. Always think in risk/reward. Is the risk small enough and the reward big enough.

If the enemy is not really good, or impatient, do not hesitate to draw him out with sacrifices and shoot at his covered fighters. Is he a great tactical mind, then be very careful with doing so for it could lose you the game if he does not take the bait. Mind games can be really powerful but make sure you do not make enemies of your RL friends.

 

[BeardLegend]

That's ok. I don't have any friends. Genius of my stature prevents me from forming lasting interpersonal relationships ...

No? Fine.

To say that there are some good tips and advice here would be an understatement. Thanks all for the meta. May your exp farms yield bountiful fruit and your enemies all roll ones.

I'll be back here later to integrate this into a series of opening/developing plays

 

[Insurgent]

People often talk about shooty or hand to hand gangs but this really isn't important. The character of most gangs is developed in three or four of your best gangers. Sometimes only a couple of them have skills that lend themselves to their idealized house arcitype. Just remember to think outside that box and play your core gangers in whatever fashion suits them best. If I can pull it off somtimes I like to run a sneaky Van Saar gang or agile Orlocks.

Another really important part of this is that many scenarios you will be facing random deployment numbers. So try not to imagine your gang as a whole because often it will not be. Try to think of its capabilities in pairs or trios each of descending importance and capability.
Troop deployment numbers
Hit and Run: Defender D6 - Attacker 4, 5, or 6. *Defender reinforcements 1, 2, or 3 gang members on random table edge.
Ambush: Defender, multiple groups of two or more models - Attacker entire gang.
Raid: Defender D6 - Attacker 2D6. *Defending reinforcements in groups of one or more models, pick group and roll above model number.
Shoot Out: Defender 2, 3, or 4 random selection - Attacker 2, 3, or 4 random selection
The Hit: Defender, one or more groups of two or more models, Leaders group deploys - Attackers 2D6. * defending reinforcements random deployment table.
Loot and Pillage: Defender D6 - Attacker entire gang. *Defending reinforcements in groups of one or more models, pick group and roll above model number.
The Hunters: Defender D6 random selected - Attacker entire gang. *Defenders remaining gang 16" away and hidden.
Caravan: Defender and attacker entire gang.
Gang Fight: Defender and attacker entire gang.
Scavengers: Defender and attacker entire gang.

That is a lot of variable in the amount of ganges you can deploy and sometimes it's completely random! This can put one or two gangers in the position of having to hold out for reinforcements. If you can choose who holds out take the heavy with the stubber and permanently designate a ganger as your hold out guy. Give him a shotgun, or grenades, or a flamer, and give him a laspistol because running out of ammo isn't an option, also a HtH weapon. I don't like to put my Leader in the holdout in case it turns into a beat down and I think he is better served as the first reinforcement.