Define a Wounding Hit (split from Heavy Bolter query thread)

spafe

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THIS THREAD HAS BEEN SPLIT FROM THE HEAVY BOLTER QUERY THREAD FOUND HERE
cardyfreak


Hmm, Just to add confusion, reading it in detail:

Some weapons inflict more than 1 wound when they hit

That's the wording. That heavily implies the D3 should be done after the 'to hit' roll, so that they can generate 'more than 1 wound' -ing roll. I have never played it like that, always the way that @Ben_S suggests. An I'm pretty sure that's how it was played by GW. But the exact wording does seem to imply that's wrong.

In order for it to be how we've always played it, I'd expect it to say something along the lines of 'some wounds are much more severe that others, causing more than 1 injury when they wound'.

Yet another reason I'm happy we play NCE now not LRB :)

Edit:
The NCE hasn't changed the wording! (I might be one revision out of date so can someone else sanity check that). I think this should be cleared up in a future revision @Anthony
 
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From the "Ranged Weapon" section:

upload_2015-12-15_14-20-52.png


1) You roll to hit
2) You roll to wound
3) You roll the number of wounds inflicted

Switching 2) and 3) doesn't really make sense.
 
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the number of wounds inflicted by a hit...

that's the bit that isn't clear. you could read htat as a d3 damage implies you roll d3 for how many to wound rolls you generate.

Not saying that's what I think the intention is (or how ive ever played it), but there is some lack of clarity there.
 
Wounding hits and damage are two different things. You roll to save a wounding hit. Unsaved wounding hits cause damage.
That's why in the weapons profile, the amount of damage a weapon does is called 'damage' and not 'wounds'. The problem here I think is about people's terminology. When you say 'how many wounds does a heavy bolter hit inflict', the terminology is incorrect. The proper question should be 'how much damage does a wounding hit from a heavy bolter inflict?'.
A heavy bolter shot only causes one wounding hit, it's the damage it causes that inflicts negative modifiers on a targets W characteristic.
Of course, we all call it wounds and not damage but that's just because we understand what the damage translates to. But that's why damage is called damage, to make it distinct from the 'to wound' roll; one hit, one wound, multiple damage.
 
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I think the key word here is "inflicted".

When you roll "to wound" you haven't actually inflicted anything. If the roll is succesful THEN you check how many wounds you inflict (as per the "damage" column). Most of the time that will be 1. Sometimes D3 og D6.

To sum up quoting the LRB:

"Once you have hit a target you must test to see whether a wound is inflicted." (p. 16)

then you must find out

"The number of wounds inflicted (...)"

You cannot check how many wounds you inflict if you havn't actually had a wounding hit.

That being said, it's a bit unclear. And it's actually not any clearer in the NCE, @Anthony :)
 
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One sentence in the rulebook is all that's needed:

INJURIES
If you have succsessfully wounded a fighter,
consult the Damage section in the weapon
profile to find out how many wounds has been
inflicted.
Most fighters have a Wound characteristic of 1
but some have a value of 2 or more. If the target
has more than 1 wound then deduct 1 wound
from his total for each wound he suffers. Make a
note on the roster sheet. So long as the model has
a least 1 wound left he can continue to fight. As
soon as a fighter suffers his last remaining wound
roll to determine the extent of his injuries. The player
who inflicted the wound rolls a D6. (...)
 
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@Gorkamunda & @cardyfreak , I agree with you both, and you both sum up the issue far more elegantly than I do, but do you have a reference @cardyfreak for you're statement about damage being that?

I can find an explanation of a Wounding roll, an Injury roll, a to hit roll... but no damage roll... or damage definition. The term is a bad one.

And seconded what gorka suggests to clarify this all up!
 
NCE page 33 has a brief outline of 'damage'. Again, the wording is a little ambiguous. Really where it says;
NCE page 33-
'Damage
The number of wounds inflicted by a hit – usually 1 but in the case of larger weapons possibly more. Sometimes the amount of damage will be random, e.g D6 or even 2D6.'
It should say;
'Damage
The number of wounds inflicted by a successful wounding hit – usually 1 but in the case of larger weapons possibly more. Sometimes the amount of damage will be random, e.g D6 or even 2D6.'
(My italics)
In the interest of completeness, I'd also propose a change to the wording of saving throws on page 18 of the NCE.
Currently it reads;
NCE page 18-
'Armour Saving Throw
If a fighter is wearing armour and suffers a wound then roll a D6. If the dice roll is sufficiently high then the wounding shot has struck the armour and not hurt the wearer at all. The dice score required varies according to the type of armour. The most common armour types and the D6 roll required to effect a save are given below.'
I'd alter it to read;

'Armour Saving Throw
If a fighter is wearing armour and suffers a wounding hit then roll a D6. If the dice roll is sufficiently high then the wounding hit has struck the armour and not hurt the wearer at all. The dice score required varies according to the type of armour. The most common armour types and the D6 roll required to effect a save are given below.'

This then clarifies that a wounding hit is rolled to be saved before any damage rolls are taken, as the damage section on page 33 would say that damage is rolled after a successful wounding hit.
 
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Just so i am 100% sure the order goes (looking at cardy's suggestions):

Sustained Shot Rolls
Allocations (4')
Rolls to Hit
Rolls to wound
Armour Saves
Any Damage rolls (Heavy Bolter D3)
Injury Table

Thanks guys i did not realise i hit a talking point and in the new year (after campaign is finished) NCE here i come.
 
NCE page 33 has a brief outline of 'damage'. Again, the wording is a little ambiguous. Really where it says;
NCE page 33-
'Damage
The number of wounds inflicted by a hit – usually 1 but in the case of larger weapons possibly more. Sometimes the amount of damage will be random, e.g D6 or even 2D6.'
It should say;
'Damage
The number of wounds inflicted by a successful wounding hit – usually 1 but in the case of larger weapons possibly more. Sometimes the amount of damage will be random, e.g D6 or even 2D6.'
(My italics)

As @spafe pointed out, there's also the section on multiple damage, which suggests that a hit causes damage.

I think this suggestion is certainly along the right lines, but perhaps it would be better to drop the reference to a hit. 'Hit' is kind of ambiguous because if I fail my 'to hit' roll, in one sense, I haven't hit - but my stray shot could still hit someone else, in a second sense.

Could we say something like 'the number of wounds inflicted after a successful 'to wound' roll (and failed saves)'?

We use something like this:
Roll sustained fire. e.g 4 hits.
Each time you hit you roll a D3 e.g 4 X D3 (10 wounds)
then you have to roll if those wounds wound.
so 10 times 2+
Then you roll the injury.

If you look at expected damage done, then this should come out the same.
Against a T3 target, the proper order would mean 4 times 5/6 chance of wounding, each then doing d3 wounds. So 4 x 5/6 x d3.
Your way, 4d3 = 8 (on average), then each has a 5/6 chance of wounding. So 4d3 x 5/6.

However, doing it your way makes it much more likely that the weapon will inflict at least one wound. In the first case, the chance of not doing any wounds is 1/6 to the power of 4 (i.e. rolling four 1s). Your way, it's 1/6 to the power of 8 (i.e. rolling eight 1s).

Both of those are pretty unlikely, but if we were considering something like two hits each causing d6 damage then I think - without actually having crunched the numbers - there would a considerable difference in the likelihood of inflicting at least one wound.
 
Well, the changes in experience rules over different editions make it rather convoluted, but in ORB you got experience for 'wounding hits' and a scattering blast was not a wounding hit (because not a hit). It's because it's something of a 'term of art' - rather than being self-explanatory - that I think it's best avoided.

I see that @Gorkamunda 's suggestion simply refers to successful wounding, without mention of hitting, and I think that's better.
 
A scattering blast that hits a different target didn't, and doesn't, grant xp because the attacker wasn't aiming at that particular target, so the wounding hit is more luck than design and rightly shouldn't grant xp.
I prefer the term 'wounding hit' because I feel the term 'wound' should be left to mean the result of a damage dice roll, or the damage indicated on a weapons profile, so the term is only used in relation to one explicit thing- the end result of a successful wounding hit. Then the damage translates to wounds, which matches the stat that is affected.
Else we have a process that reads:
Hit> wound> (save throw)> damage> wound.
So when a rule refers to a wound, which wound does it mean?
I prefer the wording of a process of:
Hit> wounding hit> (save throw)> damage> wound.
In this process the term 'wound' is the climax of a successful shooting action and can only be interpreted as having an affect on the targets W characteristic, and any references to wound (like for damage dice) clearly show that it occurs AFTER a saving throw, not before.
I just think it's easier to follow when the term is used once.

Edit: and I know the rule book has a 'wound' table and the section on wounding is under the heading 'wound' etc, but to me the end result of a successful roll on the 'to wound' table is a wounding hit, not a wound. To me, a wound isn't inflicted until the very end of the process. [emoji28]
 
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I like that break down... now to try and check the entire NCE to make sure its consistent with that method!

Man, who knew rules refining could be so complicated! Maybe this is why GW don't bother :p
 
That's the problem with slight changes of wording in a rule book like necromunda, the rules are all over the place haha! As in my edit above, the term wound is used to describe the entire process of seeing if a hit becomes a wounding hit, so it's not as simple as just changing a word here or there. But I think the 'wound' section on page 16 (NCE) could easily be changed to 'wounding hits' and any references to wounds altered slightly. [emoji12]
 
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Even the term "Wounding hit" is ambiguous.
Does that mean each hit that wounds?
Each hit that lowers the wound statistic?
Each hit that causes a wound (Even if saved by armour?)
Each wound that rolls on the serious injury table?
Do template wounds count?
Do wounds from scattered templates count?
 
A wounding hit is, as the name implies, a hit that wounds. That is to say, a hit that wounds and is not saved by an armour save. I don't see the issue here and think we're bordering on going round in circles here.
All of your examples are already dealt with elsewhere in the book satisfactorily but in the interest of clarity I'll answer anyway.
1) The definition of a wounding hit is a hit that passes the roll on the 'to wound' table. If the wounding hit is saved, then no further action is taken as it has been successfully saved and the model is now pinned. If the save is unsuccessful, the wounding hit is referenced against the weapons damage value and the appropriate step taken, whether this is simply striking one wound from the target or rolling the appropriate damage dice to determine the extent of damage that the shot has caused. This damage is then subtracted against the targets wound characteristic until it reaches zero and the damage that reduced the target to zero wounds and any remaining damage are converted into rolls on the injury table.
2) Each hit that wounds a target is by definition a wounding hit so yes, this would apply.
3) No, as the rules clearly state that a wounding hit that is saved does not cause any damage and the model is merely pinned. There is no xp bonus for saved wounding hits as the hit has been saved. Bear in mind that an armour save takes place AFTER a roll on the wound table, so up until the point where the armour save is made, the hit has wounded.
4) The serious injury table takes place post game so this is not applicable. If you mean the in-game injury table, then the only way to roll on that table is to have scored a wounding hit so yes, a hit that wounds and causes any amount of rolls on the injury table is a wounding hit.
5) A wound from a template weapon or hand to hand weapon is a wounding hit just like any other weapon, the exact same process is followed to resolve a hit from these weapons apart from with template weapons you generally score an automatic hit. This hit still has to be rolled to see if it becomes a wounding hit just like any other hit in the game.
6) Scattered shots hit and wound in exactly the same manner as a regular template, which works in exactly the same way as any other shot. The only difference is it doesn't score any xp.
I really can't see the issue with the term 'wounding hit', it's the natural name for a shot that passes a 'to hit' test (aka 'a hit') which subsequently passes a test on the 'to wound' table (thus the hit has wounded. Hit+wound=wounding hit). [emoji1]
 
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