N18 Delaque: Psykers/Choir/Wyrm ++

[Sarkazym]

These might have common sense answers, but I'd like to be sure.

1 - Am I allowed to use the same power multiple times?
(I believe I can)
2 - Choir will add 1"-3" to the powers, will this extend the AoE effects like Craven Howl?
(I believe it does)
3 - Will that range bonus apply when I use a Wyrm as a Node? Or do I need the Choir near the Wyrm?
(Not sure on this one)
4 - Even if it's the same power 2x (1 on the Psyker and 1 on the Wyrm), will I need to maintain them separately.
(I think this is an obvious yes, but here for completeness)
5 - When Maintaining the abilities, is the Choir range checked again? Or do we keep the original range at the time it's used?
(Again, not sure but it could affect how I play my non-psykers based on #3)
6 - Concentration says 'Subsequent' action. Is this limited to the same Activation or can I use it as my 2nd Action and carry it over to the next turn? What about 'Overseer'?
(I believe the intent is to be used as the first action to give a +1 to the following Simple/Basic powers, and not meant to be available for Double Powers)

I'm sure these are probably common sense answers but I would like to be sure. I'm trying to get back into the hobby, and after being disappointed with 40k my friend invited me to join his group for Necromunda. I picked Delaque because that's what I played in 1st ed and I'm trying to round out my Gang. I was going to skip Psykers for now, but they appear to be integrated into Delaque so I'm looking at taking a Gheist since I bought the add-on box. I haven't played an actual game yet, but I've been watching Videos/Batreps while assembling my gang. I haven't found/seen any videos that cover these questions yet, so just thought I'd ask.

 

[HugeSamples]

1 - it depends on the power. Simple powers can be cast multiple times per activation, basic and double can be cast once per activation.
2 - yes
3 - the choir needs to be near the caster. e.g. the psy-gheist, leader, champion, etc.
4 - you can only maintain one power per activation. i.e. you cannot maintain 2 continuous powers.
5 - this one is an edge case that GW hasn't really defined. I can see arguments for both sides of the fence here. My gut says it would snapshot to what it was at cast time. i.e. you are maintaining an existing power. However, that could be a lot of book keeping and I can see people playing it as a fresh cast. Talk to your arbiter.
6 - concentration is like an aim action. It applies to the next action that activation and no further. You have 2 actions per activation, so even if you activate twice via overseer you would only get the bonus to the next action that activation

Things are vastly different now compared to oldmunda.

Delaque are one of the trickier gangs to play for a new comer. I personally like the psyker flavor that they have, but if you are looking for a "meta list" most of them won't use the powers (whispers) as they are kind of niche.

 

[Sarkazym]

I feel that a big part of the confusion is players using the terms activation and turn interchangeably.

Normally there isn't a difference, so an activation is the same thing as a turn. Overseer obviously complicates that.

I'm led to belive that Overseer grants the model a new activation. If Basics are once per turn, then Overseer wouldn't allow them to be used again, which isn't what I'm seeing in games. Models getting a 2nd shot off being the most common.

With Psyker powers, the same thing would happen. You'd use a Double Power, or Concentrate and a Basic/Simple power. 'Unremembersble Utterance' is a simple CE power. What's stopping me from using it 2x on the same activation? One on the psyker, and one on the Wyrm?

Then for the next activation, Maintain the power would have to be one of your actions for the bonus, but nothing is stopping them from using the same Power again. Unless I'm missing something., that leaves 2 Continuous powers in play, possibly the same one right?

Overseer complicates things because it allows a second activation in the same turn. If it's treated as a second activation, then we run into the issue of the Continuous power ending after the Overseer, so the bonus activation requires Maintain to be used in the same turn. If it didn't, then by the same logic Basic/Double actions wouldn't be repeatable from Overseer for all players.

Though it would usually take a round or 2 to setup, it's possible (though statistically improbable) for a Psyker to have 2 Continuous powers in effect at the start of his activation. With Maintain being a simple action, a psyker could blow his activation to Maintain them both. Or risk 1 or both as a free action if you needed him to move.

2 thoughts kick in at this step.

One, having the expanded AoE would give larger bubbles to be irritating. 2 Utterances locking enemy models to a single activation within 6" starts to look pretty good.

Second, two Wyrms suddenly make a ton of sense. Again, unless I'm reading it wrong the Wyrms still activate when the Psyker does. So they can still move with their Bubble on them while the psyker maintains both powers. Their Long Leash rule is pretty good for that.

Hopefully now you can see how the Choir comes into question. I can keep the psyker near some Juves and put the Continuous effects on the Wyrms.

 

[TopsyKretts]

I feel that a big part of the confusion is players using the terms activation and turn interchangeably.

Normally there isn't a difference, so an activation is the same thing as a turn. Overseer obviously complicates that.

I don't think Overseer affects turn/activation terminology, but Group Activation certainly does. Action limitation is per activation, not turn or round. Same as kill team or any other game with that kind of mechanic.

For clarity, what you call "turn" is actually "round". "Turn" is one or more subsequent activations, ie. Group Activation. No wonder players are confused, even rules mix this up (seemingly).

 

[HugeSamples]

There is a lot to unpack here. So let's first start with the 2 different maintain control actions:

Maintain Control (Simple):

In order to maintain a continuous effect, the psyker must perform this action, if they do not, the continuous effect expires at the end of this fighter's activation. The psyker immediately makes a willpower test with a +3 modifier--if the test is passed then the power remains in effect until their next activation; if failed, the power ends immediately.

~Core Rulebook page 153

Maintain Control (Free):

if they wish, the psyker may instead choose to make the maintain control action for free at the start of their activation--if they do so then they don not add any bounses to their willpower test and may not attempt to manifest another wyrd power this activation regardless of whether or not the willpower test is successful.

~Core Rulebook page 153

if you do the free one you cannot cast any more powers this activation.

If you do the simple one you may still cast more powers. Looking more closely a the maintain control simple action they must have changed it from one of the previous incarnations where it said that action could only be done at the start of you activation. So I was wrong you could do 2 maintain control simple actions to maintain 2 continuous effect. Whether that is good or not totally depends on the situation .

Now lets look at the rules for actions:

Simple Actions:

a model can perform the same simple action more than once during its activation. Each time a simple action is repeated during an activation, it uses up one action."

~Core Rulebook page 102

Basic Actions:

a basic activation can only be performed once per model activation. If an activated model's first action is a basic action, it may fully resolve it before declaring its second action.

~Core Rulebook page 102

Double Actions:

performing a double action counts as making two actions.

~Core Rulebook page 102

I think it's pretty clear how actions work.

Let's look at overseer:

Order (double):

make a leadership test for this model. If the test is passed, pick a friendly fighter within 6". That fighter can immediately make two actions as though it were their turn to activate, even if they are not ready. If they are ready, these actions do not remove their ready marker.

~Core Rulebook page 260

This model uses a double action to give another model 2 activations as though it was their turn to activate. I don't really see any edge cases here. That model would follow all the same rules for action types. Do note if you use overseer to maintain a power, the next time that model activates (which may be during the same "turn") they will have to do that same thing again to prevent the continuous effect from expiring again.

You could totally cast multiple powers through different nodes--the psyker itself, wyrms, psychoteric thralls, etc. If the power is simple you could cast the same power from two different nodes.

With wyrms bear in mind the psyker needs to be within 12" to cast powers through them. They are free to move away afterwards. If a wyrm ends its activation more than 12" from its owner it needs to take a cool check or break and run towards it's owner (ending the power I believe, since they wyrm is no longer standing and active).

 

[Sarkazym]

if you do the free one you cannot cast any more powers this activation.

If you do the simple one you may still cast more powers. Looking more closely a the maintain control simple action they must have changed it from one of the previous incarnations where it said that action could only be done at the start of you activation. So I was wrong you could do 2 maintain control simple actions to maintain 2 continuous effect. Whether that is good or not totally depends on the situation .


Thank You for Clearing that up for me, I had missed the bit about using the Free one to lock you out of other powers. Probably wouldn't come up since I don't see myself trying to maintain a second CE if I need to move, so would probably risk the free action before doing that.

Glad I saw the Overseer activation needing to maintain the power I just cast. At least I got a handle on that.

I DID read the exotic pets rule wrong, but never asked about it. I would've probably figured it out when I play a game, but happy I saw it now. I was under the impression that Exotic Pets activated at the same time as their handler, which isn't true. The Handler has to perform a Group Activation while the Wyrms are within 3" and I don't believe 'Long Leash' extends this. It also means that Overseer doesn't extend to the Pets either.

Having two different Wyrms with Huge bubbles is still something I might try, I just have to get them into a good position the first time. I lost the theoretical advantage like I originally thought to get the Pets to move twice, unless I wanted to blow Overseer on one of them. Still do-able, but very situational and very unlikely that there wouldn't be a better option for Overseer.

 

[HugeSamples]

In house of shadows (I haven't looked at the core rulebook rules for exotic beasts, but I imagine they are copy and pasted) the exotic beast rules read as follows:

Group Activation (Exotic Beasts):

when a fighter with this special rule is activated, their controlling player must activate all exotic beasts belonging to this fighter as well, as part of a 'group activation':
- The controlling player selects and activates each fighter in this group activation as normal, fully resolving each activation before selecting and activating the next. Each fighter activates individually; groups do not activate simultaneously.
- If this fighter itself is activated as part of a group activation, this rule still applies, meaning any exotic beasts this fighter owns are activated as described above when this fighter is itself activated as part of a group activation.

~House of Shadows page 47

I didn't see anything specifying a range?

In any case, I hope we were able to clear some things up for you. I don't think anyone really understands everything rules as written, but we try our best.

Necromunda has a pretty crunchy ruleset--easily broken and full of holes. It's not a competitive skirmish game, best not to treat it as such.

I'm not saying you are doing this, but if you approach this game with a win at any cost frame of mind it's not going to be fun for you or your opponent.

I personally tend to steer away from skills like overseer due to how many broken, unfun things you can do with it.

 

[HugeSamples]

though reading overseer again and the exotic beat group activation rules I can see some ambiguity. Something like that will probably come down to what your arbiter says.

 

[HugeSamples]

more unsolicited advice:

it is surprisingly hard to have a dedicated choir to follow your psy-gheist around.

- the gheist is a really weak model until it gets a few willpower upgrades.
- a lot of scenarios you're going to have 7ish models. Dedicating 4 of those models--gheist + 3 choir models--to the delaque whisper niche is hard.
- due to alternating activations it's very difficult to have your choir in place when you need it.
- wombo combos like the unrememberable utterance + spatial psychosis stasis lock are really hard to get off.

I like psykers and usually have 1 gheist and a psyker champion on my lists.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Pets got updated in N23:

N18 - Collected Errors/Typos in N23 Rulebook

A book that supposedly includes "every major aspect of the rules" with "all the FAQs and Errata from previous book". Additionally, there are many rules updates, most of which should be welcome (some have been discussed as far back as 2018 and many similar house rules have been proposed). Let's...

yaktribe.games

 

[HugeSamples]

I'm looking at page 87 in the Core Rulebook and the group activation (exotic beast) action looks the same as what I typed.

Am I missing something?

 

[Sarkazym]

In house of shadows (I haven't looked at the core rulebook rules for exotic beasts, but I imagine they are copy and pasted) the exotic beast rules read as follows:

Group Activation (Exotic Beasts):


I didn't see anything specifying a range?

In any case, I hope we were able to clear some things up for you. I don't think anyone really understands everything rules as written, but we try our best.

Necromunda has a pretty crunchy ruleset--easily broken and full of holes. It's not a competitive skirmish game, best not to treat it as such.

I'm not saying you are doing this, but if you approach this game with a win at any cost frame of mind it's not going to be fun for you or your opponent.

I personally tend to steer away from skills like overseer due to how many broken, unfun things you can do with it.

My friend and his buddy have been down at the Local Warhammer store pushing Necromunda and they're going to start playing on Thursdays which I conveniently have off. So I just bought the latest book (N23), HoS, Both Delaque Boxes some dice and cards. This is part of what I'm finding out as I watch battle reports. That there are subtle rules differences in the books. Most of them have been easy to figure out the changes/updates so far. I haven't seen any that run pets yet.

They just started an open campaign and I don't mind jumping in cold. My original Idea was to run a '1st' Ed. list with no psykers to start out with and build up from there. I've been reading/watching videos and feel good about picking Delaque for my first go around because it has broader options for both shooting, combat, and built-in psykers. So I keep modifying my starting list and seeing what rules I don't know or I am unsure about.

After looking over the Powers available I looked at the ones that I felt would help me out, then selected a few different ones to try. I was also under the impression that Psykers could change their powers between games. Found out that they're stuck with them. Then I started looking at how to implement them and noticed that quite a few of them are very short ranged, which doesn't make sense on a Gheist unless you're plan is to invest into their future promotions. Then I read what Wyrms do and things started making sense. I never looked at Exotic Pets until I read it.

I was treating them as Wargear but got their own fighter card, and had their own activation, but just assumed they automatically activated at the same time. They sort of do. They can only activate as part of a Group Activation when their handler is activated, which I had overlooked before but I'm excited I found out. Now I've flipped my thoughts. I don't believe that Exotic Pets get their own ready markers. So Overseer extending to the pets is irrelevant since the handler has to do a Group Activation. 'Long Leash' states that Wyrms must try to stay within 12" instead of 3". So my original thought of having the pets move twice while the psyker stands still to double maintain is how it works, just not by the path I thought.

-----
As for the 'Dedicated' Choir tactic, I'm aware that it's virtually Impossible to do. I don't plan on running it that way. The way I have my list setup is that I will have the Leader, Gheist, and 2 Gangers as my 'shooting' element, so I can see them starting together. The idea is to take advantage of that and have the Gheist get an expanded bubble off the Wyrm, then try to maintain it while the Gangers run off, which is why I'd like to know if the Choir is required just for the initial test, or if it's needed to maintain that effect. Best Laid Plans and all, I don't see that being very reliable but I simply want to know what tricks I have in my bag at this stage.

Craven, Utterance, Cacophony, Blight, (and Cloak to an extent) look good to me as support powers and they don't require LoS!. Expanding the bubble on those powers to 6"-8" on a 6" move models appears pretty good. Since you can't premeasure Range in this game, my opponent won't be able to check to see if he is out of range until after he has finished his players activation. The simple counter to that is for my opponent to throw one Juve into that range then avoid it with his other Models. That's where Overseer comes in. The Gheist simply 'Tethers' the Wyrm to his point, but the Wyrms could potentially move 12" to the otherside of that tether. That's the idea anyways.

For now, I'm going to run a Gheist with 1 Wyrm but I do appreciate all the answers/help. It's given me quite a bit to think about and Im excited to get my models assembled.

 

[HugeSamples]

For sure experiment and have fun.

Don't expect much out of your delaque gangers. Leaders and champs are going to do most of your heavy lifting.

Delaque are one of the trickier gangs to play--they lose "fair fights". You need to engineer "unfair" exchanges while trying your best not to make a negative play experience.

 

[HugeSamples]

I found the section where is says you can only have one continuous effect in play: Core Rulebook page 153 under "Using Wyrd Powers".

 

[TopsyKretts]

Yeah it's sort of in the nature and how it is in other games too.

 

[Sarkazym]

I found the section where is says you can only have one continuous effect in play: Core Rulebook page 153 under "Using Wyrd Powers".

Thanks for that! Helps in planning progression.