N18 Delaque Starter list

[Sarkazym]

'Played' tonight against another new player. The guy who was supposed to teach us didn't show so we attempted to push through it.

We spent quite a bit of time reading for what was pretty much a 3 turn game. My infiltrating juve got a single head shot off and OOA a Goliath Ganger. The Webgun caught 3 of his guys, webbing 2 of them. Failed his Bottle check on Turn 1. 2 of his guys stuck around. One crippled a Juve, but not taken out. Set the Webgun blazing, who put himself out. The Nacht Ghul saved the Cripled Juve. Bout it.

Question Time:
- I'm not completely certain we Played using Sidearms in the fight step correctly.

Webguns confuse the hell outta me. It's not so much that I think they're complicated, but we found ourselves flipping back n forth between different sections of the book.

- I don't roll to hit, but do roll to wound. Are they still prone/pinned when I roll a Nat 1?
- Normally, Seriously Wounded model rolls recovery end step. If they roll a Flesh wound, they take -1 T, the switch to prone/pinned. If they roll a Serious wound, they stay Seriously Wounded, but take a -1T flesh wound. So this happens until he stands up, T goes to 0, or he straight up goes out action?
- When Webbed, they can still go OOA. If a Serious Wound is rolled, they stay the same, but do NOT accumulate -1T. I'm confused about what happens when they roll a Flesh Wound. Says 'As Normal', but remove the Webbed status. Do they still take the -1T when they stand up?

That's all I have for now.

 

[Gdolkin]

-Yes, they've been auto-hit by a template shooting attack and so are still pinned regardless of the success or failure of the Wound roll. Note that you still have to roll the Ammo Dice even though you don't roll a D6 to hit with a template weapon, but Out of Ammo results just force an Ammo Roll and don't negate the hit, the pinning of the target or any resulting wounds/webs/flames etc.
-Correct in all respects.
-Yes, they still take the immediate -1 T Flesh Wound as normal as they bust out of the web, and remain pinned until their next activation as per normal Recovery Roll Flesh Wound results. It's just the Serious Injury result that doesn't add a further Flesh Wound while Webbed as it would for an un-webbed Seriously injured fighter.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Webber has template and that normally means auto hit. So no matter what you roll to wound, the hit part alreaddy happened and they are pinned regardless of outcome. Some traits will explicitly say no pinning like gas, but that was not rhe case here.

 

[Sarkazym]

I'm going to call tonights game my first full game. The other two were more aimed at learning the basic mechanics, so we fudged quite a few rules to create situations to learn rather than skip over things based on what the dice gave us. We played the full game but had to do quite a bit of backtracking as we remembered rules and had to apply them. I still learned a TON and have made adjustments to my Gang based on it. We ended up playing 'Smash and Grab' with me as the Defender. Highlights for now, but I've got questions based on what happened. Gotta do my homework first.

- The first thing that I immediately needed to change, though situational, was my bad luck getting models on the field. Attacker gets Custom(8) models, I get Random 3+D6 (landing a 2). So it was my 5 models to his full Goliath Gang. I got it up to 6 with the Wyrm, but still not good. I now see the NEED to take a Whisper here. He would've gotten me access to 9 models so I would've had all of my Gang to defend the 5 objectives. I was horribly outnumbered. Leader, Gheist, Nacht-Ghul, and the 2 Juves. I used Mass Infiltration and probably should've taken the Gangers instead, but just went with it.

- I also took 'Utterance' this time and it worked brilliantly, for the first 2 Rounds anyways. With only the Leader, Gheist and Wyrm deploying normally, I grouped them all up behind a solid wall. I activated the Gheist first, 'Concentrate', then 'Utterance' with a HUGE Success giving the they Wyrm a 5" action denying bubble. The Wyrm then moved 11" to push a Goliath champion that had gotten close. The Gheist on the other hand, managed to get possessed by a Demon on Turn 1 of all the useless things to have happen. With the Goliath Champion so close, I decided to use Overseer on the Gheist. With his M9" because of the possession he was able to set himself up nicely to deal with the Goliath Champ next round, and he DID. Activated him first, passed the free maintain check, then Charged the Goliath Champ and EVISCERATED him with the full 10 Wounds taking him out with Flesh Wounds. I seriously didn't roll a single OOA out of 9 rolls after the first one removed a wound. I was able to launch the Wyrm with is 5" bubble to affect 3 of this Fighters. Didn't matter since the Demon kills it's host at the end of the round taking the Wyrm with him... I'm always going to remember my first official OOA kill was with a Gheist in Combat though.

- The Nacht-Ghul performed GREAT. I misunderstood how he deployed and held off getting him in until Round 3 because it would've been too much to backtrack all the activations that had happened by the time we figured it out. Might have passed my bottle test if he had been on board Round 2, but it was an uphill battle before the Gheist went all Bloodthirster. I might still drop down to a Sever sword to get the Credits for the Whisper and get the Smoke Grenades back. I like the claws better, and feel the loss of the smoke is meh since I'm going back to Psychosis for now.

- We gave the pets Ready tokens this game and we chose to treat Overseer as 2 Actions and not an activation and test it. You can see the other thread on the in-depth discussion about it, but it simply felt better. Definitely a stronger argument than treating it as an activation. The potential exploits treating it as 2 actions would require weighted dice, or a level of luck that would make a Leprechaun hide for being inadequate. The potential is there, but even the simplest exploit would require specific timing, conditions, and a cooperative response from opponents to pull it off. The exploits from treating it as an activation are still difficult, but much easier to pull off than treating it as 2 actions.

It also made Overseer less attractive with my current setup. I'm starting to look at other skills, but I'm leaning toward Mentor for the Campaign. I'm also looking at using Mass Infiltration to get the Gheist/Wyrm into the thick of it. I honestly believe that they could compliment the Webgun Ganger quite well. I could also deploy the Wyrm normally, and just infiltrate the Gheist, since the Wyrm is fast enough to catch up on his first activation, and use any other Infiltration buffs on the models Im currently using them on.

Thanks All

 

[Sarkazym]

Question and looking for Recommendations:
** Improbable Shots **
If the modifiers make it so that a fighter can't possibly hit (ie if he needs a 7+ or worse to hit), he can still shoot. For each shot, fired, the player must roll a D6, on a 1-5 the shot will always miss. If he rolls a 6, then take a shot as normal, with no modifiers applied to their BS.

This happened in my game, and we actually went through the process of trying to figure it out, step by step, with one of the Arbiters there who didn't know how it worked either. One of my Dual pistol Juves was trying to shoot at a target behind hard cover. I wasn't in the 4" range with the Autopistols to get any bonuses, so the modfiers for a single shot was -2. That puts the Juve at a 7+ to hit with a single pistol, so I decide to shoot the 2nd Pistol granting another -1, taking it to an 8+. It was then that we had questions...

Q: The 'Improbable Shot' feels more like a test to me, and not an actual shot. It's a bit non-specific with it's words. A 1-5 is an outright miss and a 6 is a normal shot.

1 - All of us were unsure when to roll the Ammo dice for the shot. If we treat 'Improbable Shot' as a test, then we don't roll the Ammo dice at all. This could also mean that Blast Weapons that use BS to hit would also outright miss and wouldn't even scatter. (I'm aware that most players will target a point on the map, but we were curious). I honestly believe that this is the intent. Narratively, this represents the shooter looking for any movement, and pulling the trigger when he sees a hint of movement, and finds an opportunity to pull the trigger.

2 - If it is an actual shot, then we'd roll the Ammo dice for the Improbable Shot, and possibly the normal shot as well, which only causes more problems when Rapid Fire gets involved. Trying to apply Common Sense makes it resolvable, but unnecessarily awkward. We'd roll an Improbable Dice and an Ammo dice separately for each shot. Apply an Ammo Check off this roll. If a 6 is rolled, the Ammo dice carries over to the next roll to hit, which wouldn't roll an Ammo die. Narratively, this represents the shooter looking for any movement, and getting spooked, pulling the trigger hopeful that he manages to hit something.

3 - Or we could simply roll for an Ammo Check on the 'Improbable Shot' roll, like any shot. When we get to the second shot 'as normal' and roll the Ammo die a second time if the gun didn't run out of ammo on the first check, this is where the Rapid Fire rule would take effect. Narratively, this would reflect a trigger happy/nervous fighter blasting away blindly with the possibility of jamming his gun before he can get the gun pointed in the right direction.

So approaching this rule from a 'Stack' and 'Narrative' approach means all 3 of these outcomes are possible RaW and don't create any real conflicts, simply requiring an Arbiter to pick one. Unfortunately, I don't currently have my N23 book. I've decided to lend it to another player so that our game next week might be a bit more entertaining with both of us knowing some of the rules. So I can't refer back to the rule for more clarity right now, but wanted to get it down before I couldn't remember any of it when I get my book back. I'm opening up the discussion for if/how others play it, as I'm not finding any consistent solutions.

Recommendations:
Since we're going to be playing Skirmish games for a bit, I'm looking for other suggestions on which Tactics to try out. I'm already like my Nacht-Ghul, so it's hard for me to not take my second tactic as something that specifically benefits him. Right now I use the one that allows me to remove the model, and replace it 4" from where it was. This has been pretty powerful with the Nacht-Ghul, but it's not limited to the Nacht-Ghul. As Delaque, I have the one that allows me to prevent one of my opponents model from participating. This is HUGE, and I'm mixed on it. Goonhammer has it listed as one of their 'Ban' cards, and I'm inclined to agree from an un-fun perspective. It also means I won't be able to restrict my opponent from bringing fighters that I don't have access to in an effort to level the playing field. (I only have the 1 fighter that has >24" Weapon, and I see this as a way that designers allow Delaque to level the field. Now that I know failing a Bottle Test forces my opponent to test for the rest of the game, forcing him to take a Bottle Test on 2D6 is another way to level the playing field and affects the rest of the game. I'm running D3+1 Infiltrator in most games and the Nacht-Ghul will be turn two, so it's quite possible that he could be making a Bottle Test on turn 1, even on the bigger maps.

Any other suggestions I should look at to try out? I have the following Packs.
- Core Gang
- Delaque Gang
- Delaque Vehicle
- WHC Free PDF
- Zone Mortalis
- Underdog

I also found out that there might be Non-Gang specific Tactics in the Gang Specific Packs/Books. So if anyone knows of any of these, or a comprehensive list of all the existing ones, that'd be helpful.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Sounds like you're overcomplicating things. It's it's a shot, not a test. What is says is you roll twice instead of once. First you need a 6+, then BS with no modifiers. That's why it is 7+, all modifiers above that are ignored. Since it is an actual shot, you always roll ammo dice. There is no improbable shot and normal shot - the shot is the improbable shot. It's improbable because it requires an additional roll, thus making it more improbable than a normal shot.

You don't need the rulebook, there are sources from the community which are more up to date and holds all rules, like Necro-vox website or my own Necrodamus pdf. However, since I have it, I can quote it here:

If the negative modifiers applied to a Hit roll mean that it is impossible to score a hit, the attack is an Improbable Shot. To make a Hit roll for an Improbable Shot, roll a D6. On a 1-5, the attack misses. On a 6, there is a chance that it will hit; make a second Hit roll as normal, using only the fighter’s Ballistic Skill and ignoring any other modifiers.

I think there were some of the old school GW skirmish games that had improbable shot where any excess modifiers carried over to the second. but they skipped it here for simplicity.

All tactics cards (545 according to my calculations) are available in yaktribe vault:

N17 - Tactics (Deck of Doom)

All Tactics.

yaktribe.games

N17 - Printable Illustrated Custom Tactics Cards (Ruins of Jardlan - Van Saar vehicle cards)

A regularly updated printable document with illustrated Necromunda Underhive Tactics Cards in MtG format. Print them in A4 and put in a sleeve with a spare MTG card for stiffness. A folder with individual cards 👉 INDIVIDUAL CARDS IMAGE FILES Xiądz

yaktribe.games

 

[HugeSamples]

Recommendations:
Since we're going to be playing Skirmish games for a bit, I'm looking for other suggestions on which Tactics to try out. I'm already like my Nacht-Ghul, so it's hard for me to not take my second tactic as something that specifically benefits him. Right now I use the one that allows me to remove the model, and replace it 4" from where it was. This has been pretty powerful with the Nacht-Ghul, but it's not limited to the Nacht-Ghul. As Delaque, I have the one that allows me to prevent one of my opponents model from participating. This is HUGE, and I'm mixed on it. Goonhammer has it listed as one of their 'Ban' cards, and I'm inclined to agree from an un-fun perspective. It also means I won't be able to restrict my opponent from bringing fighters that I don't have access to in an effort to level the playing field. (I only have the 1 fighter that has >24" Weapon, and I see this as a way that designers allow Delaque to level the field. Now that I know failing a Bottle Test forces my opponent to test for the rest of the game, forcing him to take a Bottle Test on 2D6 is another way to level the playing field and affects the rest of the game. I'm running D3+1 Infiltrator in most games and the Nacht-Ghul will be turn two, so it's quite possible that he could be making a Bottle Test on turn 1, even on the bigger maps.

For tactics that work with the nacht ghul I'd recommend anything that guarantees you to win the initiative. I think there are two different cards that do this:
- seize the initiative
- deceit

also things that keep him safe:
- shooting at shadows
- I only have the House of Shadows book, but I think there was one that made a friendly model untargetable until they did a hostile action.

probably many more. you might have to browse goonhammer or a similar site for an exhaustive list. @TopsyKretts linked them I think.

 

[HugeSamples]

I'm leaning toward Mentor for the Campaign

Mentor is great if you plan to bubble up or want to power level your psykers. I'm experimenting with mentor the next campaign I play. e.g. my leader has a webgun and a psy-gheist to follow him around and get the coup de gras.

Generally useful skills for a leader are things than keep him alive--dodge, evade, overwatch, spring up, sprint, etc.

infiltrate tends to be a bit too risky on a leader for my tastes, but some people like it.

 

[HugeSamples]

Generally speaking making your opponent bottle is how you win the game .

Things that help you accelerate it for you opponent or avoid it happening to you are very good.

 

[HugeSamples]

I have the one that allows me to prevent one of my opponents model from participating. This is HUGE, and I'm mixed on it. Goonhammer has it listed as one of their 'Ban' cards, and I'm inclined to agree from an un-fun perspective

Action economy is very important in this game.

Things that give you an advantage on it are huge.

 

[Sarkazym]

Psyker Powers
I understand a bit more about the tactical pros/cons of running fighters in groups, especially with Template Weapons. I'm starting to get a better idea of what powers I want to take. The comment about how difficult it is to have models babysitting a Gheist for the Choir bonus makes much more sense now. I'm switching back to 'Psychosis' for the next few games. There isn't much of a Choir Bonus unless my opponent also has a psyker and the Wyrm gives it INSANE range, and as a simple action I can use it twice if need be. I feel that CE powers are where the strength is. You only need Choir for the first time, and once it's in play they can run off. I know that perils isn't that common, but based on my one game, I'm a bit paranoid.

My next question is about the disciplines. I like about 1 power from each of the schools. Reading HoS, it looks like I can't split my powers between them as they advance. I was fine with this until I started looking at a models Potential. Gheists can advance into Nacht-Ghuls. So now I'm looking at starting with Powers that will be better down the line, and how to use them during the start. Same issue though, I don't want to limit them to the one School.

It was recommended I grab the Outcasts book for more powers. I like a few of the powers in there at a glance, but as I play more games I will go back and look at them. The rules for Psykers in there are slightly different. I'm still leaning toward Whispers because Choir won't help Wyrd Power use, but there is no penalty for splitting between Whisper disciplines. This makes me think THAT is the penalty for using Whispers. I've read the discussions and I'm going to ask my Arbiter about it for sure, but what is the general consensus on those powers with Delaque?

1) Can we choose the Wyrd Powers over Psychoteric Whispers at creation?
2) You can split Wyrd Powers, is that limited to using the Wyrd Powers, or can I split powers between the different Whisper Disciplines?
3) I assume no (Covering Bases here), but would splitting between Wyrd/Whisper powers would also lose the School bonus. I feel this way, but Outcasts looks like it's written without expecting any outside influence with powers.

 

[HugeSamples]

1) Can we choose the Wyrd Powers over Psychoteric Whispers at creation?
2) You can split Wyrd Powers, is that limited to using the Wyrd Powers, or can I split powers between the different Whisper Disciplines?
3) I assume no (Covering Bases here), but would splitting between Wyrd/Whisper powers would also lose the School bonus. I feel this way, but Outcasts looks like it's written without expecting any outside influence with powers.

1 - GW faq'd this.
Your first power must come from psychoteric whispers.
Further powers gained via experience can come from the outcast powers.
The only way around this is if you became a psyker via some non delaque mechanic. e.g. becoming genestealer infected or chaos corrupted.

2 - Delaque whispers are limited to those from a single psychoteric whisper discipline. e.g. you cannot have both spatial psychosis and unrememberable utterance on the same fighter.

3 - Since you are required to have at least one whisper, you will "never" be able to get the single discipline bonus from the outcast trees. (see the exceptions from point 1).

 

[HugeSamples]

I know that perils isn't that common, but based on my one game, I'm a bit paranoid.

They aren't that common but any result on that table is devastating.

This is why the skill psy-touched from obfuscation is very good.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Just a point on upgrading your Psy-geist to a Naght ghul.
Look at the stats of the Naght ghul and the difference betwixt, I like that word, the Psy-geist. You need around a hundred xp to Naght ghul level. If you want the Psy-geist to do Naght ghul things like carve through folks like butter it takes a vast amount of work.
The same is true for every prospect in all gangs. It is just more efficient to buy another fighter.
However it is a way of getting thier From the shadow ability, or whatever it is called, which i can see being useful for a Psy-geist. It is the only prospect upgrade I think is remotely worth it in the House gangs prospects.
Another however, as a Psyker your Psy-geist needs lots of xp for willpower upgrades and other powers (plus general survivable traits) and as a prospect they have the easy learner ability to stop these upgrades costing progressively more which is very useful. Additionally they have the hot headed rule as a prospect. That rule may not benefit themselves much but as your opponents learn the best way to deal with Psykers is to shoot them long range early at least when they get taken out by a sniper they won't trigger nerve tests for your remaining fighters.

 

[HugeSamples]

Look at the stats of the Naght ghul and the difference betwixt, I like that word, the Psy-geist. You need around a hundred xp to Naght ghul level. If you want the Psy-geist to do Naght ghul things like carve through folks like butter it takes a vast amount of work.

This is a good point.

The only reason you bother with prospects for any gang is they get access to something that a champion or special champion does not. In the case of the psy-gheist it's the wyrms and harness.

That said I have a lot of trouble theory-crafting a harness gheist where it would not have been better to just get a nacht-ghul instead. Which is a shame the harness gheist is a really cool looking model.

 

[Sarkazym]

1 - GW faq'd this.

Thanks for this. I guess downloaded an old one, and didn't see an FAQ on HoS. Found the correct one. So start with one of the Delaque ones, then find good pairings in the Wyrd powers. I can still pull off the combo I want, I just have to take Freeze Time as my second skill to bounce off they Wyrm. We'll see how it goes.

Just a point on upgrading your Psy-geist to a Naght ghul.
Look at the stats of the Naght ghul and the difference betwixt, I like that word, the Psy-geist. You need around a hundred xp to Naght ghul level. If you want the Psy-geist to do Naght ghul things like carve through folks like butter it takes a vast amount of work.
The same is true for every prospect in all gangs. It is just more efficient to buy another fighter.
However it is a way of getting thier From the shadow ability, or whatever it is called, which i can see being useful for a Psy-geist. It is the only prospect upgrade I think is remotely worth it in the House gangs prospects.

Another however, as a Psyker your Psy-geist needs lots of xp for willpower upgrades and other powers (plus general survivable traits) and as a prospect they have the easy learner ability to stop these upgrades costing progressively more which is very useful. Additionally they have the hot headed rule as a prospect. That rule may not benefit themselves much but as your opponents learn the best way to deal with Psykers is to shoot them long range early at least when they get taken out by a sniper they won't trigger nerve tests for your remaining fighters.

This is all stuff I've been looking at already tbh. More cool over practical. Willpower is the cheapest upgrade, so it's only 6xp to get it to a 6+, which is probably the first thing I'll go for tbh. I was trying to think of the reasons why someone would do it. Pskyer and Wyrm are two of the reasons. The Harness is another one that has potential and I like the idea of a Serpent's Fangs/Psychomancer's Harness despite it's impracticality. Pulling that off means that BS wouldn't be needed because the Fang's would occupy the 2 slots available if I read it right. So that leaves a Wound and an Attack. Unless I tried to shoot for Spring Up, the Initiative wouldn't even be a priority. Evade and Fearsome would also be on the table.

With the Fantasy out of the way, I don't see myself ever going down that path. Even if I found a way to reliably get the Gheist XP, to have him survine and then mold that character into a Weaponized 41st Mill. Doc. Octopus is just too expensive to end up with a 2nd Nacht-Ghul which won't land me any friends. If I REALLY wanted that, then I agree with you 100%, it's cheaper to just get a second Nacht-Ghul. I'm more interested in getting a 2nd Gheist/Wyrm right now because that's what has my interest.
Realistically, I see myself getting the Willpower and Psi Touched to be the best option if he even gets there. Right now he's there to support the gang and I'm hoping to find Powers that work to that effect.

Thx again to both of you for responding.

 

[HugeSamples]

I just have to take Freeze Time as my second skill to bounce off they Wyrm

I assume you are trying to do the "stasis combo". I've found this sounds good on paper, but in actuality is really hard to pull off. (I have yet to successfully do it, but my sample size isn't super high).

Bear in mind freeze time hits your models as well.

 

[HugeSamples]

some combos I was thinking of trying:
- opprobrious curse + cause pain.
- opprobrious curse + suicidal embrace.
- psychotic lure + terrible truths (or hallucinations if you want to super charge it).

 

[Sarkazym]

I assume you are trying to do the "stasis combo". I've found this sounds good on paper, but in actuality is really hard to pull off. (I have yet to successfully do it, but my sample size isn't super high).

Psychosis / Freeze Time would be what I want to do. Don't know if that's the same thing. If you're talking about doing the Double Activation denial, even I wouldn't do that. I just wouldn't be fun for anyone if I managed to pull it off. I think it could be done if I still end up going with Overseer. I like Freeze Time because it's a pulse effect with a larger range. I'm aware that it affects both teams and I'm okay with that. I think the 'Friend or Foe' tactic has some fun combos with the Wyrm.

- I like the Curse/Pain combo except for the Range. It will require me to commit the Wyrm with no protection if the T check fails, unless the target has already activated.
- Curse/Embrace same problem, but is nice because they're both Whispers
- Lure/Truths. I like this one, but until I figure out which one works on it's own to start, I'm going to reserve my opinion. I'd probably go with Hallucinations though, esp if I keep Overseer.

I'm really liking the 'Whispered Threats' tactic to be honest. Not just from a game perspective, but from a narrative one as well.
- Howl / Existential is the best HoS combo that could work with it but I don't like the range on Existential.
- Howl / Terrify is what's appealing to me similar to the Lure/Truths combo.

Outside of that. I like Mental Assault because it not only Pins, but removes a ready marker.

 

[HugeSamples]

Howl / Existential is the best HoS combo that could work with it but I don't like the range on Existential.

The problem with this one is that they are likely to run out of howl range when they break from existential