Delaque/Van Saar Starting Loadout to watch out for? Grenade Launchers.

[Commissariat]

Fighter core of:

• Gang Leader w/ Fast Shot (Or another skill perhaps), Grenade Launcher, "Lasgun"
• Champion w/ Fast Shot, x2 Autopistols, Grenade Launcher
• Champion w/ Fast Shot, x2 Autopistols, Grenade Launcher
• Ganger w/ Grenade Launcher, "Lasgun"

Any variation of this starting loadout seems like the bringer of the end times.

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So far, it seems like grenade launchers are under-priced:

1. 10 credits more than just buying krak grenades while benefiting from both grenade types.
2. Range is more than twice as far as throwing grenades and is not effected by two stats decreasing grenade value. (Str+BS needed for Grenades while only BS is necessary for Grenade Launchers)
3. They can be taken by gangers and thus taken in large quantities.
4. Grenade Launchers, as mentioned in another thread, also beat out Sniper Rifles with their accuracy and ability to pick targets out of cover or out of LOS-blocking terrain with no penalties to shoot.
5. Grenade Launchers, even if they scatter, can acquire a lot of OOA XP potentially.
6. Cheap enough that you can pack a second Grenade Launcher as a spare gun without much financial deficit.

Downside of Grenade Launchers is that they do not work when firing at higher elevations.

Being able to pick your Shooting Skill out of the gate is very scary since shooting has a lot of powerful skills.

What are your thoughts on the Grenade Launcher, has it not been that big of an issue?
Am I missing something in the rules?
How do you combat it? Has it not been a problem for you?

We played a game of Goliaths vs Delaque gang w/ a GL-Ganger and a GL-Champion/Fast Shot team. It was ugly. A starting Delaque/Van Saar gang can spam these puppies.

In a casual/narrative environment it is easy to look down on its abuse, but the point still remains as it is the sole special weapon of many gangs.

 

[Thorgor]

This thread, combined with the other thread about plasma guns, makes me think there is a real problem with special weapons accessibility. The fact that only juves and 3~4 starting gangers can't take a special weapon from the get go doesn't feel right.
I think special weapons should be restricted to leader/champions/specialists (which would also serve as a justification for the latters' name). This would also put the neo-Orlock at less of a disadvantage (since their gangers cannot take special weapons at all).

There is also a problem with the pricing of weapons. As you said, grenade launchers are grossly undercosted. The fact that they come with free frag and krak grenades seems to be the problem (as buying both of those separately would cost 10 credits more than the launcher (and it's even worse for Goliath with their 10 credits discount and non-rare trade)).
If you play Goliath, I see no reason whatsoever to buy grenades without a launcher. The only upsides of thrown grenades being no penalty to hit for frag grenades under 6" and a freed weapon slot, everything else is worse: you have 50% chances to run out of grenades every time you throw one (versus 14% with a launcher), long range is halved, krak grenades have -1 to hit at long range, and you can't reload them.)
Grenade launcher should probably come empty, or cost at least 60 creds more.

 

[el_ojo_y_la_sombra]

I agree with the grenader launcher cost. A flamer in the legacy rules now cost 100 credits... a grenade launcher cannot be cheaper. In the basic rulebook the cost of the g-launcher is almost the same as the cost of gang wars launcher + frag + krak grenades. Could be another indication of several versions of the rules during testing that were not cleaned correctly in the final text.

I am not sure restricting to leader or champions should be the anwser. Because some factions have more CC oriented characters. But surely putting a limit in the amount of special and heavy weapons a gang can satrt with should work.

Maybe a maximun of 2 special or heavy to start is a reasonable limit.

 

[Casus]

Totally agree on grenade launchers - well under-costed for such a versatile and effective weapon, especially if "regular" gangers can take them without being Specialists. I mean, why even bother with a Bolter when you can get a Grenade Launcher for just a few credits more...

Underhive had the weapon "asterisked" (=2 weapon slots) and priced at 140 pts - that might be TOO rich, but I think it is probably more accurate then the Gang War or Legacy PDF costing.

I feel like in the original game Grenade Launchers were the only Special weapon that was move-or-fire (now "Unweildy") - that might help even out the pricing as well.

 

[Casus]

Come to think of it, in the original edition I'm pretty sure Grenade launchers were the amoung most expensive special weapon available. As it stands in N17 they are the best "Sniper" weapon in gangwar, yet are less expensive then some "basic" weapons (combat shotguns).

 

[EAfirstlast]

grenade launchers are an issue.

Out of 7 games, my only loss so far have been against a legacy orlock with 2 launchers

 

[Ross]

I suspect that the Orlocks might not be the only gang that can't give its gangers special weapons. It could be that the Escher and Goliath gangers can take them only because their Champions are more likely to be kitted out for close combat.

And like the Orlocks, the other gangs may not have them in their house weapons lists. Doesn't completely solve the problem, but at least a gang would have to get quite a few games into a Turf War before having their full complement of grenade launchers.

The other gangs might have some other cool special weapons to tempt you with as well. Needle guns for Delaques, plasma guns for Van Saars, etc.

 

[Thorgor]

I think the only reason neo-Orlock gangers don't have access to Special weapons is because there are none in there HWL. It's most likely an oversight (my bet is that they wanted to remove the "only one ganger can have a special weapon at gang creation" bit to avoid confusion (since you are limited to HWL at this point) but they removed to much of the rule in the process).

Goliaths can currently spam grenade launchers like there is no tomorrow (55 creds a pop, common trade, can be equipped on anyone who isn't a juve) while Eschers need a rare trade to do so (a fairly easy one to pass at rare-8 but, depending on your interpretation of the trading post rules, they may have to sacrifice income to do so (and they have to pay 10 creds more)) and Orlock simply can't have them on gangers (if we use the rules as written).
This may quickly prove to be a problem in a campaign.

 

[Ross]

And I think it'll only be a problem if you're playing a campaign with randos, or the worst gaming group ever. If one of my friends made a list with four grenade launchers in it I'd tell them where to stick their grenade launchers!

"Hey Ross, do you want a game?"
"Noooope."

 

[Casus]

Agreed - stuff like this is rarely an issue in friendly games, which is the majority of play (and all of my play to be honest), but the underlying problem - that Grenade launchers are under-pointed/over powered at their current cost, and special weapons are perhaps a little too accessible to some gangs (and strangely inaccessible to Neo Orlocks) - could be easily rectified with just a few small errata entries.

 

[Trafalgar Law]

Grenade launchers could do with some kind of downside. Either a big increase in points, less reliable ammo (same rules as for thrown grenades, maybe) or make them unweildy (they are in underhive I think). They're just too good at the moment.

 

[Commissariat]

We're house-ruling them hard in our Tabletop Simulator campaign. Our Event Organizer, @Taikkuus, has opted to make them 80 in the Trading Post and 70 in the Goliath/Cawdor/Van Saar/Delaque House Equiipment Lists while also making you pay for the grenades that come with similar to NCE. Makes them pricey, but it is a good step considering how useful they are. Of course, price can change after a Turf War if we observe the price as being too high/low.

 

[Ross]

Grenade launchers could do with some kind of downside. Either a big increase in points, less reliable ammo (same rules as for thrown grenades, maybe) or make them unweildy (they are in underhive I think). They're just too good at the moment.

Agreed. I'd be happy to pay more credits and/or take Unwieldy. The Grenade rule is pretty punishing though. I actually played my first few games assuming it had this rule, and it was no fun having it run out of ammo the first time it shot and then not being able to reload it.

 

[maxwellrpower]

I would suggest don’t play against people who think it’s fun to use multiples of the most OP gear they can find in the rules. Doesn’t mean it’s not an issue, but really to me that’s so against the spirit of Necromunda (as I see it anyway) that I just wouldn’t ever want to play that person. At least not for a second time anyway. Don’t get me wrong, I can take getting my arse kicked in a game, I’ve lost most of the games I’ve played really, but it’s not exactly fun to be on the recieving end of tactics like that. If you’re gonna beat me into a bloody pulp, please do it a bit more imaginatively than that!

Edit: I noticed others have made the point that this is the easy solution in many situations but not a real answer to the problem for anyone playing casual games outside a friendly club/home environment, and I agree with that, just wanted to add my scorn to the stew in case anyone comes here planning on loading up a gang like this because such people can’t be told enough times that such activities are not cool.

 

[Thorgor]

Not to advocate WAAC mentality, but I'd rather blame the game than the player when an obviously unbalanced feature gets exploited, especially when it's an easy one to fix.
I also think telling players to rely on a gentlemen agreement is a cop out at best, and more often than not proof of lazy game design. If something is obviously OP, then the only good move is to nerf it, not tell players "well, don't be a dick and stop using it". I know Necromunda is not supposed to be a perfectly balanced game, but the only way not to abuse 55 creds grenade launchers at the moment is to not use them at all (or maybe take only one).
And even if the "don't be a dick" social contract does work in practice, I'd feel more confortable telling my opponent they can't field 10 grenade launchers in their Goliath gang because the rules say so than because I think they are an awful human being.

Interestingly, the grenade launcher is one of the few things that is better in gang war than in underhive (the underhive version costs way more and takes 2 weapon slots (while strangely not being unwiedly)). Maybe somebody screw up and this will get fixed in the upcoming FAQ/Errata?

 

[maxwellrpower]

I agree with all that too @Thorgor, I just like having the odd rant and deliberate abuse of unbalanced rules makes me angry It’s people like that who create one of the worst barriers to new blood in the hobby. But yes, absolutely it’s a problem that should be addressed by GW so the players don’t need to.
Anything that’s so powerful it’s an absolute auto include irritates me too and I’ve notice a whole lot of Goliath leaders are getting grenade launchers, like 99% of the loadouts I’ve seen online...

 

[Casus]

Yeah - the difference in points between Underhive and Gangwar stands out to me that is actually just an error in Gangwar that has now propagated through other documents like the Legacy gangs equipment list.

Interestingly:

If you assume the cost in Gang War is WITHOUT grenades (remembering that Gang War is supposed to be the flexible custom build version of the rules), and you have to buy the grenades separately, the price of a grenade launcher + Frag and Krak is only 10 credits different from Underhives "all in" price, so the "fix" may just be that you need to buy grenades separately and the price for the weapon is just that - the launcher, no ammo.

As someone else already mentioned, as is there is almost no reason to ever buy hand thrown grenades - they cost more, run out of 'ammo' more, have less range, etc...

 

[Vegeta365]

Could somebody ask Andy on warhammer TV on Thursday at 4pm? That would at least give us the answer.

And while your at it, poison etc...,

 

[maxwellrpower]

I was thinking I might watch as I've been up late pretty often lately, no promises but if anyone's got any more questions they want asked let me know?

 

[Blackmonkey0]

I assume they missed a 1 from the Grenade Launcher (so 155) price just like the Escher Lasgun (15)