Development discussion

JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
1,471
2,074
138
Saint-Petersburg, Russia
I have an incredible interest in the spirit of oldmunda, but it seems like this is a streamlining mission rather than a redesign?
We are doing a redesign, but trying to leave everything that works without changes. For example, we are definitely not changing the dice from D6 or messing with how alternative activations work (not needed and would push a lot of potential players away), but we are discussing, say, possible ways to make Intelligence and Willpower suck less in general games or how to tone down blasts.
 

Commissariat

Ganger
Mar 9, 2017
238
220
63
Maine
Right, well, that is good to hear. Some things like skills and the campaign system don't work too well, among other things, so I'll wait for if/when those discussions are drummed up - I don't wanna get too gung ho!

In the meantime, I'll pop into the writing crew!
 

Jayward

Gang Champion
Aug 4, 2020
287
450
63
Been a couple of months since the last update, thought I'd give the thread a poke and see how things are going? Let me know if there's anything I can do to help
 

Terrion

New Member
Jul 18, 2021
2
2
3
Hi, I'm still a bit lost in the depth of these forums so this is probably the wrong place for my question about NCE...

Playing NCE, can I purchase a chainsword in the post battle sequence instead of rolling for a rare item and equip one of my Delaque gangers with this weapon? Thus overriding the Delaque house weapons list?
 

almic85

Cranky Git
Oct 30, 2014
2,365
4,253
163
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
Hi, I'm still a bit lost in the depth of these forums so this is probably the wrong place for my question about NCE...

Playing NCE, can I purchase a chainsword in the post battle sequence instead of rolling for a rare item and equip one of my Delaque gangers with this weapon? Thus overriding the Delaque house weapons list?

Depends if you are playing with House Weapon Lists (HWL) or not.

If you are using HWLs as per the NCE then it will cost you a rare trade to purchase a Common weapon not on your HWL.

If you have house rules out HWLs then you need to come up with a list of Common items that can be purchased from the trading post without giving up a rare trade.

FYI the right place for these types of questions is in the Necromunda>Rules & Mechanics sub thread. Just tag the post with NCE so people know that is the ruleset you are talking about.
 

JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
1,471
2,074
138
Saint-Petersburg, Russia
@KA7777
Ok... but doesn't that make the sequence of events,

1. Decide to make a community edition
2. Decide to call it YCE
3. Decide to base the final decisions on collaboration
4. Decide to poll players to determine the extent of changes
5. Decide to cancel 3.
6. Decide to cancel 4.
7. Call it YCE anyways

I'm turned off by the sense that a set of very particularly individually-suited house rules are being camouflauged as the consensus result of community discussion/effort, without any indicators that that's what happened. I guarantee you I wouldn't be posting about this if the document didn't use the YCE name.

It's all well and good to mention "80 pages of committee discussion" but that's still not transparent. How many people were on the committee? Did the conversation end with a committee vote in favour of a contested melee system with defense rolls?

I see like 2-3 people consistently engaged in the defense of the final version of the melee rules, and many of the Yaktribe members whose opinions I value most highly haven't really said anything more substantial than "Congrats for tackling the project!" or "I might use some parts of this."
The committee included roughly 10 people, out of which about 7-8 were active and by the end of it 4-5. The conversation went for a really long time, with voting for every step along the way. We eventually realised that this was going nowhere and it fizzled out with Topsy stating that he might attempt turning Bookromunda into YCE. We also realised that public voting on things is just silly, because general voters are not part of development team and do not see a full picture whenever something more radical is suggested.

As a last ditch resort, to kickstart the discussion again, I've translated and compiled my houserules, because I figured it'd be easier to critique a ruleset's prototype rather than vote 'yes or no' for each of the mirriad separated microchanges. We actually did agree that melee could use some changes, however nobody but me seemed to like alternating attacks. Killteam and its new combat system were mentioned though, which the current YCE's combat system is somewhat close to. For the rest half of a year I've been slowly working on my ruleset formatting in russian. It was playtested by my group specifically, we even got to play a 2 months campaign, to check most of suggested ideas. After I saw no activity in YCE for such a long time I've decided that I was done waiting and translated my ruleset, but before that I've posted 'radical YCE' threads to get additional criticism and to decide what to cut and what to leave in.
 
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Petitioner's City

Gang Hero
Nov 15, 2017
1,332
2,259
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Edinburgh, UK
@KA7777

The committee included roughly 10 people, out of which about 7-8 were active and by the end of it 4-5. The conversation went for a really long time, with voting for every step along the way. We eventually realised that this was going nowhere and it fizzled out with Topsy stating that he might attempt turning Bookromunda into YCE. We also realised that public voting on things is just silly, because general voters are not part of development team and do not see a full picture whenever something more radical is suggested.

As a last ditch resort, to kickstart the discussion again, I've translated and compiled my houserules, because I figured it'd be easier to critique a ruleset's prototype rather than vote 'yes or no' for each of the mirriad separated microchanges. We actually did agree that melee could use some changes, however nobody but me seemed to like alternating attacks. Killteam and its new combat system were mentioned though, which the current YCE's combat system is somewhat close to. For the rest half of a year I've been slowly working on my ruleset formatting in russian. It was playtested by my group specifically, we even got to play a 2 months campaign, to check most of suggested ideas. After I saw no activity in YCE for such a long time I've decided that I was done waiting and translated my ruleset, but before that I've posted 'radical YCE' threads to get additional criticism and to decide what to cut and what to leave in.

Hopefully more of that original team will come out of the woodwork (the ones I linked to in the other thread ); I guess I can see now some of why @KA7777 might feel alarmed, as I hadn't realised how much of a gap there was between your team chats and then the kickstart you initiated JR. I also hadn't realised TK and other team members had left your project too. But such is life!

I guess the next steps are for it to become again a community endeavour, if it is indeed to be the yak-y community edition, and already that seems to be what seems to be occurring in the threads - exactly what you are doing, which is great. But if it isn't that, I get what KA7777 is meaning now. Still really exciting to see what happens next, and to see what you've gone with the other bits of the rules :)
 
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JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
1,471
2,074
138
Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Hopefully more of that original team will come out of the woodwork (the ones I linked to in the other thread ); I guess I can see now some of why @KA7777 might feel alarmed, as I hadn't realised how much of a gap there was between your team chats and then the kickstart you initiated JR. I also hadn't realised TK and other team members had left your project too. But such is life!

I guess the next steps are for it to become again a community endeavour, if it is indeed to be the yak-y community edition, and already that seems to be what seems to be occurring in the threads - exactly what you are doing, which is great. But if it isn't that, I get what KA7777 is meaning now.
I've tried contacting most of committee, at least ones that were active throughout private discussion. I've even organised a discord server to discuss YCE, didn't work out. Pretty much the only people that responded and offered actual assistance were @Kiro The Avenger (who was on committee and is an experienced player) and @Commissariat (who was not on committee, but I know him from taking part in an amazing fanmade project called Heralds of the Ruin). From my point of view, thats enough qualified people to work on the rulebook draft. If more people would like to offer input, sure, but I would not want to repeat whatever happened with YCE committee, where every step of the development is turned into an endless voting drag.
 
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KA7777

Gang Champion
Jan 19, 2018
356
451
68
Canada
Thanks for posting additional information, @JawRippa

Your ruleset is badass, visually slick, and more comprehensively written than any GW product (which is all the more impressive because you were much of it unassisted).

All of my discomfort about it (beyond a personal preference for some of the rules as they currently exist) comes from the misapplication of the YCE label, because of what that label might suggest to an uninformed party who happens across the rules.

Even calling it "Radical YCE" seems appropriate. But I think that going with 'YCE' alone conveys misinformation, given how the collaborative effort of an ideal YCE fizzled out/didn't reach the point of, say, committee voting on final rules. Obviously, nobody can force you to name your baby anything you don't want it to be named, and it's entirely possible that your project forms the basis for a more community-sourced version of a YCE.
 

almic85

Cranky Git
Oct 30, 2014
2,365
4,253
163
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
As a member of YCE committee I back what what JawRippa has done with releasing his draft proposal of the NCE.

The committee had talked about what changes we wanted to make and the ways that wording could be changed to achieve what we wanted but it seemed to big down when it came to actually writing the revised the rules.

JawRippa has done that (and done it very well).

He might have put some of his own preferences in there (like alternating attacks) but as the person who has written the whole thing after the committee essentially stopped he gets a bit of leeway to do that.

Now as the community we all get to look at it, play test it and provide critique on if it works and what could be improved on.

It’s worth keeping in mind that the NCE started out as one man’s house rules as well before becoming more widely adopted by the yaktribe community.
 

JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
1,471
2,074
138
Saint-Petersburg, Russia
All of my discomfort about it (beyond a personal preference for some of the rules as they currently exist) comes from the misapplication of the YCE label, because of what that label might suggest to an uninformed party who happens across the rules.
I don't really care about the name. Funnily enough, my group and I never got to naming our ruleset (which was written in russian), because I don't like giving names until whatever I'm working on is properly finished. What I care about is having access to proper feedback, maybe getting another writer or two on board. That'd be possible only if it was a community ruleset.

Thing is, what exactly does qualify as community made ruleset? How many yakkers do we need working on it for it to count as a communal project instead of a local homebrew? Does it mean slavishly following GW core ruleset and only clarifying things? Which, by the way, they themseles can't even do properly and have to stealth errata things like fighters fleeing at different times of the round.

As I've said earlier, I don't think that YCE can get away without some serious digging into the game's guts and radically changing some stuff - because the base ruleset is made very incompetently (but you can see a skeleton of a very fun skirmish game hidden in there). Even NCE introduced some changes to core mechanics, for example 'special saves', which as I'm assumming, were not a part of original ruleset, given that they are all written in red text. Nonetheless, I'm not trying to pull some privatisation nonsense, I deliberately put my document's template online, so if not my version, then someone else's can take off.
 
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