Development discussion

[JawRippa]

One small, but important thing: I don't know how similar to GW ruleset in terms of looks we are allowed to make YCE. If you've seen the draft, you've probably noticed that I was trying to mimic original ruleset in terms of looks, up to cut images, fonts and background, because if it looks 'official' then readers are more willing to accept it.

Anyway, all of it can be easily changed or removed if the need arises. Maybe we could organise a kickstarter for artists to draw our own illustrations for necromunda? We are definitely keeping examples of movement in though, because these were produced by me, not GW. In case if people dislike GW's grey background (reading black on grey causes eyestrain for some yakkers as I've heard, also printed stuff is barely readable, I've tried), we could always remove it as well.

 

[TopsyKretts]

I see a lot of fan made content mimic official design in detail. Because official has a sense of value. Some make cards almost pixel identic to the original. Others use font and background for house rules, custom campaigns and scenarios.

Personally I have the opposite reaction. I create a lot of community content based on official stuff. But I don't get any good feeling from the original design because that's where the problem comes from. That's mainly why I make my own printed material, the official stuff isn't good enough. And I don't think the design itself is particularly good or interesting anyway.

 

[JawRippa]

I've made a draft for reworked YCE Psychic powers rules. No disciplines, just core rules.

 

[JawRippa]

Draft 1.1 is up. I can't thank enough all of the people who took part in proofreading the previous draft - you guys seriously rock!!

My future plans are about making pseudo GoTU document with simplified gangs lists and weapon traits. Expect lots of recosts and balancing changes. I want to keep it simple at first, no brutes, hangerons or house-related special rules nonsense. Hopefully after that we can finally start some proper playtesting of the skirmish part!

 

[JawRippa]

I'm starting to work on YCE: House Legacy (a book for gang creation). My first draft part are skill tables, which you can check out here.

 

[JawRippa]

I've updated the skill draft.

 

[JawRippa]

So, after putting 2 drafts for the core rules and gang creation rules, I did not receive any feedback from the yaktribe other from people who were involved with the project. Meanwhile, the russian translated version is being actively playtested by 2 groups of players. It is a bit of a shame, but I think that I have to put the english version on a slowburner, as the only way to flesh out the rules is through active playtesting and I can't sustain 2 versions of the document written in different languages. This does not mean that I'm abandoning the project completely; just do not expect updates any time soon. For now the plan is to actively playtest the russian version and incorporate changes into english release someday.

I feel like maybe this is a failure on my part to promote the YCE correctly, as I'm generally not great at organizing other people and I did not bother much with promoting the ruleset outside of yaktribe. I do not mind if the ruleset is niche enough to not be a 'community' edition because of all the changes I've brought, but I wonder why it is not getting any traction. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[SweetOrbMace]

So, after putting 2 drafts for the core rules and gang creation rules, I did not receive any feedback from the yaktribe other from people who were involved with the project. Meanwhile, the russian translated version is being actively playtested by 2 groups of players. It is a bit of a shame, but I think that I have to put the english version on a slowburner, as the only way to flesh out the rules is through active playtesting and I can't sustain 2 versions of the document written in different languages. This does not mean that I'm abandoning the project completely; just do not expect updates any time soon. For now the plan is to actively playtest the russian version and incorporate changes into english release someday.

I feel like maybe this is a failure on my part to promote the YCE correctly, as I'm generally not great at organizing other people and I did not bother much with promoting the ruleset outside of yaktribe. I do not mind if the ruleset is niche enough to not be a 'community' edition because of all the changes I've brought, but I wonder why it is not getting any traction. Any advice would be appreciated.

Hi JawRippa,

I’m sorry, I meant to provide feedback as I did read through the rules but work and life just generally got in the way of me putting any hard thought into it.

Firstly, it’s an amazingly thorough piece of work - doubly so as you’ve been doing it in 2 languages which I hadn’t realised.

I think my big issue with it, and the one that I suspect is hindering uptake and feedback is whether there’s a real appetite for it in the wider community. I know frustrations and issues with the GW ruleset are real, but I think it’s too easy to get into the Yak bubble and assume the very vocal frustrations here are shared in the wider community that is playing regularly with its own much more limited house rules but perhaps doesn’t engage as much on the forums.

I’ve been playing and arbitrating regularly since the new edition launched with a fairly large and fluid group. There’s definitely a drive to keep house rules to a minimum - of course some people favour an approach closer to yours, but it feels like that’s a minority.

So, apologies again. A slightly rambling answer.

Tldr; does ‘the community’ want its own edition? I believe not.

But what you’ve done is an amazing piece of work and I hope you and your group are a) proud and b) have fun playing it!

 

[TopsyKretts]

So, after putting 2 drafts for the core rules and gang creation rules, I did not receive any feedback from the yaktribe other from people who were involved with the project. Meanwhile, the russian translated version is being actively playtested by 2 groups of players. It is a bit of a shame, but I think that I have to put the english version on a slowburner, as the only way to flesh out the rules is through active playtesting and I can't sustain 2 versions of the document written in different languages. This does not mean that I'm abandoning the project completely; just do not expect updates any time soon. For now the plan is to actively playtest the russian version and incorporate changes into english release someday.

I feel like maybe this is a failure on my part to promote the YCE correctly, as I'm generally not great at organizing other people and I did not bother much with promoting the ruleset outside of yaktribe. I do not mind if the ruleset is niche enough to not be a 'community' edition because of all the changes I've brought, but I wonder why it is not getting any traction. Any advice would be appreciated.

Speaking for myself, I have no time or interest for playtesting. I could be able to supply feedback for a rule set once it is complete and playable (even if it is still being developed, not perfectly balanced or adjusted). That was my idea of YCE. Virtually no play testing. Just iterating feedback into new versions of the rules. Sort of like NCE (today at least).

 

[SweetOrbMace]

double post - apologies

 

[NoOneII.]

So, after putting 2 drafts for the core rules and gang creation rules, I did not receive any feedback from the yaktribe other from people who were involved with the project. Meanwhile, the russian translated version is being actively playtested by 2 groups of players. It is a bit of a shame, but I think that I have to put the english version on a slowburner, as the only way to flesh out the rules is through active playtesting and I can't sustain 2 versions of the document written in different languages. This does not mean that I'm abandoning the project completely; just do not expect updates any time soon. For now the plan is to actively playtest the russian version and incorporate changes into english release someday.

I feel like maybe this is a failure on my part to promote the YCE correctly, as I'm generally not great at organizing other people and I did not bother much with promoting the ruleset outside of yaktribe. I do not mind if the ruleset is niche enough to not be a 'community' edition because of all the changes I've brought, but I wonder why it is not getting any traction. Any advice would be appreciated.

In my case it's mostly the fact that I am as of now lacking much experience and knowledge with the game as it is.
Our first local campaign will start mid march.

So I am not yet fit for service in this regard.

 

[JawRippa]

Tldr; does ‘the community’ want its own edition? I believe not.

Yeah, this is the conclusion that I'm having. People not interested in the houserules. I find it very suprising though, since YCE discussions had a ton of activity back when it was announced (even before any sort of draft existed).
The yak's sump, necromunda reddit, discussions of 4chan and discussions amongst playergroups in my city have a lot discussion regarding rules and a lot of it are negative towards original rulewriting or boil down to 'ask your arbitrator/opponent if thats okay'. So it shows that players are clearly aware of the system's problems.

Virtually no play testing. Just iterating feedback into new versions of the rules. Sort of like NCE (today at least).

But iterating feedback into new versions of the rules is pretty much using playtesting - as players who actually play the ruleset will provide the most feedback. Sometimes it is possible to spot a problem 'on paper', when something is very clearly broken or an obvious typo, but you can't, for example, understand whether or not the rule is fun and easy to use in the actual game and you need to actually try it out. And if we are not playtesting our own rulesests, how are we better than GW writers?

 

[Petitioner's City]

I think it's clear there is interest to an extent, in that we know the game isnt a good ruleset but rather an imaginariun.

but I've also seen on places such distrust of fan content if it isn't grown within a given community - see the very positive response to some of the more world-building things, like Kasper Kuc's book of the sump or the wonderful Book of Life - these kinda grew within specific communities on Facebook and Reddit, just like your own brilliant work has grown in its own community, @JawRippa

But as it's a rulebook refresh, that's possibly a much bigger hurdle - ane while @Shoggoth has kindly taken on the NCR (and done a great job!), it feels even community awareness of that just isn't there. The same with bookromunda, Topsy's work is well shared on some sites, but not on others. So a third rulebook edition, coming out only on a few places, without "influencer" buy in - that's a hard sell.

I mean the things I snuck into past community docs, it's nice to see them occasionally referenced, but I also even then saw so much resistance to them (an editor daring to put their own spin on things?).

It may be that it's also "behind the times" - like ash wastes and the house of really have inspired players, and maybe taken all that energy.

I don't know, I think mournival is a good model of how this can work - you need events, and community and a lot of people sharing how great the work is. So I'm not sure how to generate that community....

 

[Petitioner's City]

The other thing is it has been genuinely hard to play lately

 

[ntw3001]

I think it's hard to push a community edition for a game that's still supported. N18 doesn't have the kind of small, insular community that's amenable to passing round house rules and getting them to stick.

If I were to play N18 I'd want a community edition, but I'd also have to sell my whole group on it, which would not work. And I'd honestly rather just play NCE anyway (not that I can sell them on that either).

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

My own problem is that, much like SweetOrbMace, my local community is broad and fluid. There is a constant push for fewer rules, a major overhaul is a hard sell.

There are a few regulars that would be open to the idea, but they are very busy with families and work and such and get very little time to play, which means what time they do have they'd rather play rather than faff with new rules.
At the moment that includes myself as well.

I think it's also a very true point that people are naturally resistant to "3rd party" houserules. Combined with the fact that Necromunda is still an actively supported game, there's just not the broad reach you need to really get traction.

 

[TopsyKretts]

And if we are not playtesting our own rulesests, how are we better than GW writers?

Consistency?

 

[your evil twin]

I'm new here, and new to Necromunda. I have Hive War and also the big official rulebook, and also been reading lots of rules pdfs from here and elsewhere. I've also checked out the rules for old 90s Necromunda, and even Confrontation!

The big pdfs that compile all the official rules are huge and complicated and daunting for new players, and are arranged in such a way that you have to wade through hundreds of pages about alliances and outlaws and chaos and psykers and badzone environments before you get to basic scenarios for playing the game.

I'm also in the Necromunda Worldwide facebook group and I've seen people asking about what rules they should get, whether to use house rules, what is the latest complete set of rules, whether it is possible to play campaigns using just the Hive War starter set or whether they they need to buy more books... There's also the obstacle that new players learn from discussions on forums or Facebook that even if you have all the latest books or pdfs, there are so many problems and contradictions that you'll inevitably have to house rule stuff. And lots of players reckon "This game has been out since 2019, surely someone has put together a working set of rules by now?"

This YCE project looks really exciting. A few days ago I discovered Bookromunda and have been reading through that; I've now discovered this YCE and I am torn as to which to use.

Similarly, I think other people in that Facebook group and in other places would also be interested. (Perhaps reddit.) Sure, it might be unofficial house rules, but YCE has been put together based on discussions between experienced players, it is designed to be like the normal game but with common complaints fixed. No need to house rule, no need for an arbitrator decision or a roll off, the work has already been done, here on this forum.

I'm currently playing Necromunda with my wife, and I foresee that being the normal situation. I'm not a regular at any game stores, and anyway the ones in my area (1) don't seem to play Necromunda, and (2) don't seem to have any female players, so my wife finds them unwelcoming.

While wargames do tend to be male dominated, there are plenty of women that play D&D or board games. My wife has been playing D&D for many years, as both a player and a DM, usually at game stores. She's the one who introduced me to it! So we'd expect to see some women in the stores, and indeed that has been our experience in stores in other parts of the country. (We live in the UK.) But in our local area, we've never ever seen any women other than my wife.

So, I've been looking in depth at as many rules as possible to figure out how to run a campaign with lots of fluffy narrative elements at home. So that games between the two of us will be as full and satisfying as possible, and also the greater the narrative elements the more D&D-like it becomes.

But it seems like if you try to do a modern Necromunda Dominion campaign with just 2 players, whoever is winning will just get stronger and stronger and impossible to beat, it is intended for at least 3 players and ideally more like 4 or 5 or 6. And with an independent Arbitrator that can mess with the scenarios to rebalance things.

Something that seemed to be an excellent feature in 90s Necromunda was the "gang rating" feature, and how an inexperienced gang would get an Underdog Bonus for fighting a gang with a higher gang rating. (And if they actually beat that higher rated gang, they'd get a "Giant Killer Bonus".)

This meant that it was possible for a player to join a campaign halfway through, have some tough fights they were unlikely to win but still have fun and they'd level up quickly and catch up with the other players. It also meant that it was possible to play a campaign with just 2 players; , the gang rating/underdog bonus system meant the losing player would still have a chance to keep up and turn the tables.

I know that Bookromunda has re-introduced this classic gang rating/underdog bonus system to the game. Has there been any consideration of including something similar in YCE?

I think that giving an "underdog" gang a bonus to experience and/or reputation for fighting a more formidable gang makes perfect sense in terms of both narrative and gameplay. It is surprising that modern Necromunda doesn't have this excellent feature from the old game. I've seen several people talk about how it worked really well, and I know some people prefer to play old Necromunda purely due to them prefering how the old campaign system works.

Modern Necromunda campaigns seem to be designed to be played by large groups with an arbitrator at a game store, and not well-suited to 2 players at home, or just 1 or 2 players going to a friend's house.

Re-adding classic mechanics like gang ratings and underdog bonuses would help make modern Necromunda more playable for 2 players at home, or gaming groups where certain players can only play infrequently due to other commitments.

 

[Petitioner's City]

I'm new here, and new to Necromunda. I have Hive War and also the big official rulebook, and also been reading lots of rules pdfs from here and elsewhere. I've also checked out the rules for old 90s Necromunda, and even Confrontation!

The big pdfs that compile all the official rules are huge and complicated and daunting for new players, and are arranged in such a way that you have to wade through hundreds of pages about alliances and outlaws and chaos and psykers and badzone environments before you get to basic scenarios for playing the game.

I'm also in the Necromunda Worldwide facebook group and I've seen people asking about what rules they should get, whether to use house rules, what is the latest complete set of rules, whether it is possible to play campaigns using just the Hive War starter set or whether they they need to buy more books... There's also the obstacle that new players learn from discussions on forums or Facebook that even if you have all the latest books or pdfs, there are so many problems and contradictions that you'll inevitably have to house rule stuff. And lots of players reckon "This game has been out since 2019, surely someone has put together a working set of rules by now?"

This YCE project looks really exciting. A few days ago I discovered Bookromunda and have been reading through that; I've now discovered this YCE and I am torn as to which to use.

Similarly, I think other people in that Facebook group and in other places would also be interested. (Perhaps reddit.) Sure, it might be unofficial house rules, but YCE has been put together based on discussions between experienced players, it is designed to be like the normal game but with common complaints fixed. No need to house rule, no need for an arbitrator decision or a roll off, the work has already been done, here on this forum.

I'm currently playing Necromunda with my wife, and I foresee that being the normal situation. I'm not a regular at any game stores, and anyway the ones in my area (1) don't seem to play Necromunda, and (2) don't seem to have any female players, so my wife finds them unwelcoming.

While wargames do tend to be male dominated, there are plenty of women that play D&D or board games. My wife has been playing D&D for many years, as both a player and a DM, usually at game stores. She's the one who introduced me to it! So we'd expect to see some women in the stores, and indeed that has been our experience in stores in other parts of the country. (We live in the UK.) But in our local area, we've never ever seen any women other than my wife.

So, I've been looking in depth at as many rules as possible to figure out how to run a campaign with lots of fluffy narrative elements at home. So that games between the two of us will be as full and satisfying as possible, and also the greater the narrative elements the more D&D-like it becomes.

But it seems like if you try to do a modern Necromunda Dominion campaign with just 2 players, whoever is winning will just get stronger and stronger and impossible to beat, it is intended for at least 3 players and ideally more like 4 or 5 or 6. And with an independent Arbitrator that can mess with the scenarios to rebalance things.

Something that seemed to be an excellent feature in 90s Necromunda was the "gang rating" feature, and how an inexperienced gang would get an Underdog Bonus for fighting a gang with a higher gang rating. (And if they actually beat that higher rated gang, they'd get a "Giant Killer Bonus".)

This meant that it was possible for a player to join a campaign halfway through, have some tough fights they were unlikely to win but still have fun and they'd level up quickly and catch up with the other players. It also meant that it was possible to play a campaign with just 2 players; , the gang rating/underdog bonus system meant the losing player would still have a chance to keep up and turn the tables.

I know that Bookromunda has re-introduced this classic gang rating/underdog bonus system to the game. Has there been any consideration of including something similar in YCE?

I think that giving an "underdog" gang a bonus to experience and/or reputation for fighting a more formidable gang makes perfect sense in terms of both narrative and gameplay. It is surprising that modern Necromunda doesn't have this excellent feature from the old game. I've seen several people talk about how it worked really well, and I know some people prefer to play old Necromunda purely due to them prefering how the old campaign system works.

Modern Necromunda campaigns seem to be designed to be played by large groups with an arbitrator at a game store, and not well-suited to 2 players at home, or just 1 or 2 players going to a friend's house.

Re-adding classic mechanics like gang ratings and underdog bonuses would help make modern Necromunda more playable for 2 players at home, or gaming groups where certain players can only play infrequently due to other commitments.

To be honest as someone who compiled one of those daunting pdfs, I do agree, they are unwieldy and overwhelming (and this leads to one giving up). I had started trying to create a "basic rulebook" within it, based on the structure of the n1995 book, but it was complicated.

Alternatively to make the big book small, you give up on the lore and go to a cliff notes version which requires an underlying knowledge of the game, and thus is harder for a new player.

I think what Jawrippa is doing - getting to a better core game with simpler gang mechanics - is a fantastic idea. It just doesn't use the buy-in, even from people who were initially enthusiastic like @TopsyKretts - I'm not sure I fully understand his point above, but I'd hope he'd give jawrippa's rules a try.

However, as an arb the thing I've found is many people want to play the new cool things, but these can be conditional on X other rules. But if you are beginning and your group just what's a simple game, there isn't quite an easy way to do that. And you are right you need a games master to control all that - essentially most of modernmunda fits into the arbitrator section at the back of outlanders, which is how I structured one rulebook edit just by moving the pages from the books around.

 

[JawRippa]

GW players (of any products) in general are very resistant to any changes as it seems. Which is a shame, but fully understandable, especially if the official support for the game is ongoing. Given how supportive people were at the start and how little traction there is now, I'm starting to think that people were expecting something like old Bookromunda (or Necrodamus currently) when they are given a polished compilation. But that thing already exists (Necrodamus by TopsyKretts or Ultimate compilation by Shoggoth) and the game has a lot more problems than conflicts within rules or poor wording, some mechanics are just pure jank and need a rehaul.

This YCE project looks really exciting. A few days ago I discovered Bookromunda and have been reading through that; I've now discovered this YCE and I am torn as to which to use.

Similarly, I think other people in that Facebook group and in other places would also be interested. (Perhaps reddit.) Sure, it might be unofficial house rules, but YCE has been put together based on discussions between experienced players, it is designed to be like the normal game but with common complaints fixed. No need to house rule, no need for an arbitrator decision or a roll off, the work has already been done, here on this forum.

At the moment I can't recommend YCE for campaign, because it is in the early stages of development, at least its english counterpart, and does not have rules for the campaign. So stick to Bookromunda if you want to have a campaign and want a finished product. If you are feeling brave or you like what YCE currently offers, you could try and attach other campaign system on top of it - even GW one! - and it should function.

I do have campaign mechanics for the russian variation of YCE with underdog mechanics, but they are VERY raw and unpolished. Personally, I do not think that campaign mechanics are more important than the core rules and gang balance. Sure, Necromunda's heart and soul lies in its campaign and progression, but those are not going to help you have a good time if the actual game mechanics are a mess. If the actual 'skirmish' as I call it (when your gangs duke it out) is not fun, then campaign is not going to make it fun.

Consistency?

True, but I personally think that playtesting is an absolute must. A lot of things only come out when you actually get to playtest things. For example, at the start of creating the draft, the 'Hard Target' modifier that fighters would gain after Moving twice was supposed to be a flat -1 for simplicity. Turns out that it made shooting for average BS4+ gangers an impossible task and getting into melee became a breeze. It became apparent only after a few test games, both me and my opponent did not foresee it being as decisive before we got to playing.
Not 100% of the rules need playtesting (and with current ammount of content you can't playtest every weapon option or wargear piece), but I still think that it is a key thing for a ruleset.

To be honest as someone who compiled one of those daunting pdfs, I do agree, they are unwieldy and overwhelming (and this leads to one giving up). I had started trying to create a "basic rulebook" within it, based on the structure of the n1995 book, but it was complicated.

Alternatively to make the big book small, you give up on the lore and go to a cliff notes version which requires an underlying knowledge of the game, and thus is harder for a new player.

I think what Jawrippa is doing - getting to a better core game with simpler gang mechanics - is a fantastic idea. It just doesn't use the buy-in, even from people who were initially enthusiastic like @TopsyKretts - I'm not sure I fully understand his point above, but I'd hope he'd give jawrippa's rules a try.

Yeah, that's the goal of YCE - making the same game but from a clear sheet. I think that players do not need complex rules, at least in case of my group. I want the complexity to be within tactics, not obscure interractions or hidden weapons/equipment that allows you to break the game. If a player does want to spice things up, perhaps an arbitrator wants to make a custom narrative scenario, they could dive into 700+ pages rule compilation to borrow things. What the general player needs is an easy and clean rulebook to use. Personally I think that the perfect Necromunda was in around GoTU, because while it was janky and had a lot of errors, it was easy to start playing and all players had rules of each others gangs within reach.