N18 Difference between voluntarily bottling and failing a bottle test then fleeing?

spafe

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Hi guys,

I'm interested to know, is there a difference between failing a bottle test then choosing to flee and voluntarily bottling then fleeing? On P 89 of the rulebook it has 'fleeing the battle' and in brackets it has fleeing (whether through volunatirly bottling or failing a bottle roll), which makes me think they are different, and therefore the failing a bottle check won't trigger some of the victory rewards stuff that requires one side to have voluntarily bottled and fled, if they have failed a bottle test through a dice roll, then chosen to flee.

Thoughts?
 

Thorgor

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To me the "voluntarily bottled and fled" condition is ambiguous and may mean two slightly different things:
  1. [voluntarily bottled] and fled: the condition is verified if the player voluntarily bottles (as opposed to failing a bottle test) and subsequently flees (whether they choose to have the whole gang flee voluntarily or they wait for each fighter to individually fail their Cool check and flee on their own — because for some reason the latter is an option)
  2. voluntarily [bottled and fled]: the condition is only verified if the player voluntarily bottles (as opposed to failing a bottle test) and then chooses to have the whole gang flee (as opposed to waiting for each fighter to individually fail their Cool check and flee on their own)
One way or another, a player who failed a bottle test didn't "voluntarily bottle" so the condition is not verified, and the opponent doesn't get any freebie. This is to encourage players to go after the scenario's objective instead of simply killing everything in sight (not sure how well it works in practice, but that's the theory anyway).
 
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Punktaku

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i think the difference is one is a strategic retreat (“i’ve had enough, let’s get out of here”) and the other is less so (“f&@k this shit! run away!!!!).
 
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Malo

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  1. [voluntarily bottled] and fled: the condition is verified if the player voluntarily bottles (as opposed to failing a bottle test) and subsequently flees (whether they choose to have the whole gang flee voluntarily or they wait for each fighter to individually fail their Cool check and flee on their own — because for some reason the latter is an option)
  2. voluntarily [bottled and fled]: the condition is only verified if the player voluntarily bottles (as opposed to failing a bottle test) and then chooses to have the whole gang flee (as opposed to waiting for each fighter to individually fail their Cool check and flee on their own)
We play voluntary bottling as #2 as generally you're deciding to get the F out of town at that point. And #1 seems more like a "soft" bottle where you're voluntarily bottling but seeing how your gangers fare with some more combat? Take out a few with you or try for one last snatch at loot or something? To me it seemed the intent is #2.
 
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I dislike the requirement to voluntarily bottle.
It's a given that your opponent is going to put themselves in-between you and the objective, meaning the only way to win can sometimes be just charging past without daring to stop and shoot.
But that's obviously stupid, and why would a gang just pack up and go home when they're seeing their biggest obstacle turn and run from them?
 

JawRippa

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Mar 31, 2017
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I dislike the requirement to voluntarily bottle.
It's a given that your opponent is going to put themselves in-between you and the objective, meaning the only way to win can sometimes be just charging past without daring to stop and shoot.
But that's obviously stupid, and why would a gang just pack up and go home when they're seeing their biggest obstacle turn and run from them?
I like the potential flavor behind this. Rush your mission and flee before retaliation happens. You've achieved your goal and now want to abandon battle while enemy team is still not fully present to avoid needless scrap.

But in practice "Ending the battle - end the battle when one of the gangs has noone left on the field" combined with voluntarily bottling out may result in weird situations. Not all missions specify what happens when one of the gangs legs it on purpose.

Biggest offender seems to be The Ambush - victory is decided by comparing number of escaped(fleeing the battlefield does not count) and number of ambushed OOA fighters at the end. So, if attacker takes even a single fighter OOA before any other ambushed get to the edge of the field, he may bottle out and instantly win (provided that he has enough injured/OOA ambushers to make bottling possible). So this could result in a weird situation when fighting back and injuring ambushers will instantly lose ambushed the game, as it will allow ambusher to bottle out voluntarily and not allow ambushed to get a fighter out of the field.

Same cheese strat can be done by ambushed - for every fighter out of 5+d3 they have a 1/6 chance to deploy it anywhere on the field. So deploy them right on the edge, or out of LoS but close to edge and escape in the following End Turn. For the purpose of the Bottle test, escaped count as OOA, so ambushed could be allowed to escape via voluntarily bottle test, again, not allowing ambusher to rack up kills and instantly winning the mission this way.


In border dispute if you voluntarily bottle, your relic automatically counts defiled (and for victory you have to defile enemy relic while keeping yours undefiled, both defiled is a draw). However, mission does not specify what happens if all your fighters flee via legit failed cool checks. So, for example if you want to keep your relic clean at the end of the battle (getting a win or at least a draw) you try to lower chances of cool check pass for your team by keeping distance between your fighters and leaders/champions, so each fighter has to test a cool check.

I know that both things sound very gamey and not intended, but I struggle to understand the way what exactly was intended with these missions. What is the way your group play these two missions? And if there are any other examples of missions where prematurely ending the game via bottle(voluntarily or not) results in cheesy win, I'd like to know about them.