N18 Do 2023 rules override House of books?

[Xenith]

Just wondering, if a rule in the 2023 book is different to the house of, which takes precedence?

This is regarding promotion of juves - N18 and house of books have them promoting with 5 advancements in downtime, while 2023 has promotions at 3 advancements, to make them more common.

I presume if you're playing a 2023 dominion campaign, you'd use the 2023 downtime rules and a juve/prospect with 3 advances can be promoted?

Thanks!

 

[Beebopalulla]

Just wondering, if a rule in the 2023 book is different to the house of, which takes precedence?

This is regarding promotion of juves - N18 and house of books have them promoting with 5 advancements in downtime, while 2023 has promotions at 3 advancements, to make them more common.

I presume if you're playing a 2023 dominion campaign, you'd use the 2023 downtime rules and a juve/prospect with 3 advances can be promoted?

Thanks!

Yes for promoting juves and maybe other point. But no the house of... books stil stand for the rest. In short if a general rule present in each book of... is rewrite in the 2023 core rulebook the later one take precedence. If it's specific to a book of... the answer is no because it is not reproduced elsewhere.

 

[Lord_Ikka]

In general, the 2023 book is the overall rulebook/repository of general info that covers most things. The House of/Book of.. rulebooks cover points specific to individual gangs/specific stuff like Ash Wastes vehicle construction rules. If a rule is in both, like Blaze or Rad weapon traits, use the 2023 book as it is the most updated book.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Rules change and mutate all the time. Some times even back and forth between books. A lot of changes are simple mistakes, easily identifiable as they doesn't make sense. This change seems intentional, makes sense and has been consistently republished in all campaigns since then. So to make things simple, it should be applied to all campaigns as an universal update. It's reported here among all other changes in the N23 rulebook: https://yaktribe.games/community/threads/collected-errors-typos-in-n23-rulebook.13231/

 

[Xenith]

That's what I figured, thanks - just with NM having so many sources for rules, and all/most being valid/legal simultaneously I thought I'd check!

 

[Aulenback]

And remember, regardless what it says in the House Of books etc, Promotion of Juves and Prospects is part of the campaign rules for each campaign type - whether Turf War, Dominion, Law & Order, Uprising, et cetera, et cetera. The 2023 Core Rule Book made changes to the Dominion Campaign from when it was printed in Gang War 4, back in August 2018 That change to promotions was one of them. The Uprising Campaign was similarly changed when republished in 2023's "Necromudna: Apocrypha Necromunda," promoting Juves and Prospects with three or more Advances, rather than five. Law & Misrule still uses five in its most recent version, as it has not been republished with any changes.

Most likely it is intended as a universal change (after all, most of the new Campaign systems give six scenarios before Downtime, which is not a lot of chance to net a Juve enough experience for five Advancements, even if they are all Willpower). But because the rule is separately written for every campaign type, it would need either an updated Errata document, or else republishing every campaign system with changes.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Good point, it's been consistently applied to all existing campaigns that are republished as well as all new campaigns. GW doesn't do much of updated errata documents or republishing everything that needs to be updated, so this is the type of change we need to infer to apply universally.

 

[Xenith]

Yea, 5 advancements within 6 games seems impossible to achieve for a schmuck with bs4+. The change to 3+ is much more reasonable - now, what to do with a neotek who'll be getting promoted to a surging archeotek...

 

[Beebopalulla]

Yea, 5 advancements within 6 games seems impossible to achieve for a schmuck with bs4+. The change to 3+ is much more reasonable - now, what to do with a neotek who'll be getting promoted to a surging archeotek...

Not necessary. The promotion is optional.

You can use a juve or prospect as a cheap canon fodder.

You can use one to get a quick promotion.

You can use one to have the fattest and best progression and leave as a juve.

You can use it as above and then promote him or her.

It depends on what campaign you choose.

 

[Xenith]

I was looking at promoting my neotek to an archeotek, with all the fun that comes with a guy on a surfboard having access to heavy weapons or torsonic gamma and a spider rig!

 

[Beebopalulla]

I was looking at promoting my neotek to an archeotek, with all the fun that comes with a guy on a surfboard having access to heavy weapons or torsonic gamma and a spider rig!

No, not possible to surfboard after progression. Neither the augmek or Archeotek has a grav cutter. When the Neotek cease to be one and become something else is equipement change. Unless it's a custom made and aproved character or nemesis from apograyphia.

When a fighter is promoted in this way, they will from now on count as a Van Saar Augmek or a Van Saar Archeotek for the purposes of determining which equipment
and skill sets they can access.

 

[Xenith]

The key part there being 'from now on'? I'd seen several other people commenting to the contrary, that the model keeps all equipment and skills and profile that they had before the progression.

The NM FAQ (2022) also states that a model that gets promoted keeps and can still use any weapons that they could as a juve, but don't have access to as the new fighter type - it's logical this would extend to wargear.

 

[Beebopalulla]

The key part there being 'from now on'? I'd seen several other people commenting to the contrary, that the model keeps all equipment and skills and profile that they had before the progression.

The NM FAQ (2022) also states that a model that gets promoted keeps and can still use any weapons that they could as a juve, but don't have access to as the new fighter type - it's logical this would extend to wargear.

It might be logical for you but it's not in the rules. As for the model, the archeotek on a grav cutter i hardly see fits.

That being said as everything in the forum the consensus it is your game play it as you want.

 

[TopsyKretts]

It's in the FAQ. It's also aligned with "put away the clippers" (but not for surfing heavy weapons haha).

 

[Aulenback]

Corpse Grinder Cult were FAQed as the exception, where their equipment changes when promoted. Access to NEW equipment changes with promotion, but current equipment doesn't automatically change except for CGC masks. A promoted Wrecker continues to have the Jump Pack. A promoted Tarh'noki Dust Rider still has its bug. And from the 2022 FAQ:

Q: If a Corpse Grinder Cult Initiate (Juve) is promoted to become a Cutter (Champion) during a campaign, do they lose ranged weapons they are equipped with?
A: No, any ranged weapons they had as an Initiate (Juve) are kept. However, as their type changes to Cutter (Champion) upon promotion, they cannot be equipped with any new ranged weapons in the future.

It says the same in the FAQ for Wreckers and Neoteks as well. Special rules change, equipment list access for new equipment changes, currently equipped equipment remains. Profile MAXIMUMS for further promotion change, but current profile remains the same. Reasons that Movement are good choices for Advancements for most Juves, as it will make them faster than they would ever be allowed to later become after promotion, in most gangs.

So yes, Prospects similarly keep their equipment on promotion, but just not any special rules.

 

[Beebopalulla]

Corpse Grinder Cult were FAQed as the exception, where their equipment changes when promoted. Access to NEW equipment changes with promotion, but current equipment doesn't automatically change except for CGC masks. A promoted Wrecker continues to have the Jump Pack. A promoted Tarh'noki Dust Rider still has its bug. And from the 2022 FAQ:



Special rules change, equipment list access for new equipment changes, currently equipped equipment remains. Profile MAXIMUMS for further promotion change, but current profile remains the same. Reasons that Movement are good choices for Advancements for most Juves, as it will make them faster than they would ever be allowed to later become after promotion, in most gangs.

So yes, Prospects similarly keep their equipment on promotion, but just not any special rules.

I'm confused by your explanation. When an CGC iniate is promoted he keep his gun and his masks change. Not the rest of the equipment.

The fighter can have differents set of equipment and weapons according to their list but not a mixed of both. So your promoted wrecker will have a wrecker equipment and weapon or a specialist one but not a mixed of both.

At least this is how I understand it.

 

[Aulenback]

Your promoted Wrecker keeps everything they have when promoted. Even if it isn't allowed to be bought for their new Type.

Your promoted Initiate keeps everything they have when promoted. Even if, like pistols, it isn't allowed to be bought for their new type.

Your equipment doesn't vanish, it stays.

Your characteristics also stay the same, despite your new type. Even if they are now above your new maximums (buy Movement for your Juves, because typically they are faster than your Specialist Gangers).

Your special rules, however, change to those of your new type.

When the CGC Initiate is promoted it keeps its equipment. Including pistols. It doesn't become "naked." It doesn't keep ONLY its pistols. But it doesn't stop keeping its pistols, any more than it stops keeping the rest of its equipment. The masks get their own separate entry in the FAQ, because "changing one mask into another type of mask by 'upgrading' the item of equipment" is not at all intuitive. They are quite explicit that the old mask is not discarded, but rather that same item is 'upgraded.' Because you don't lose equipment by being promoted.

Worth noting: while the rules do say that promotion changes the fighter's type and thus its equipment list, it does not say anything about losing equipment the fighter already has. In fact, the rules are quite explicit about how and when a fighter can discard equipment. Weapons, never. All other equipment can only be discarded to the stash when a fighter gains a new item of equipment. They repeat things like this throughout the 2002 FAQ:

Q: When an Orlock Wrecker is promoted, can they still use their jump booster?
A: Yes., any Wargear or Weapons a fighter has before they are promoted they may still use and keep access to, though they may no longer purchase additional equipment from the Orlock Wrecker equipment list -- they must use one relevant to their new rank within the gang.

You keep all your gear. You don't lose it by being promoted. Yes for Wreckers. Yes for Initiates. Yes for any Prospects (it really more affects Prospects than it does Juves, as Prospects tend to have the odd eqiupment, and Juves tend to not).

They say the same thing for the Neotek.

 

[TopsyKretts]

While CGC masks are equipment, they are really just fighter class special rules.

 

[MusingWarboss]

Ah, we’ve been here many times before…

Remember!: The rules writers frequently don’t seem to understand the interaction of things in their own games.

Couple that with the tendency of some players to get a dopamine hit when they read ambiguous listings or get wide-eyed over the thought of finding a loophole to combine equipment that shouldn’t really be combined (SW Terminators with Cyclone missile launcher, and assault cannon) and you have situations like this.

Then add in the unholy trinity of FAQ answers which muddle things further or are just a strange interpretation and the whole lot unravels.

---

I don’t have the VS book so can’t check their listing. I do have the Orlocks though! I imagine as the FAQ22 answers are almost identical that the lists in respective books are the same, or at least very similar.

So for Wrecker: the jump booster is part of their initial cost, they cannot be separated from it. It has no price, appears in no equipment list or the trading post. It can’t be stashed, stolen or gifted.

The promotion rules state:

Note that, when a fighter is promoted in this way, an appropriate model should be used to represent the new category and type.

So, stop using the Wrecker model and use a Champion or Arms Master instead.

So far so clear.

But wait! The FAQ writers will FAQ-up things further!

Q. When an Orlock Wrecker is promoted, can they still use their jump booster?

A. Yes, any Wargear or weapons a fighter has before they are promoted they may still use and keep access to, though they may no longer purchase additional equipment from the Orlock Wrecker equipment list - they must use the one relevant to their new rank within the gang.

Oh, you bunch of cu…

Hmmm, so they can use the jump booster as a Champion or Arms Master.

What do you want us to do? Model a Champ/AM with a JB on??

But again we’ve been here before, the equipment they’re talking about is the table for the fighters under that profile.
The Jump Booster is also vaguely classed as equipment but as stated - we can’t remove it from the fighter, stash, pass on etc (much like “free armour in the N17 era) and it doesn’t appear in any tables so it’s clear to avoid awkward questions they just let you keep it.

Otherwise it means creating more rules for stuff that was never intended to be removed from a fighter.

But how does this interact with other rules? Can we have a JB Champ with a Heavy Stubber?

A JB Arms Master with Cyber-Mastiff? How does that work? How does the dog keep within 3” of its master when its master can now potentially jump 12” - twice! Including over huge gaps and up to high ledges with no nearby ladders or other access.
Well, they just didn’t think about that.

How to fix it?
A few potential answers.

1. Don’t be a dick.
2. Any unremovable equipment from Gang Fighter(x) fighters is restricted to their fighter cards which are transferred over. You can move Gang Fighter (x) weapons/wargear from cards to Gang Hierarchy (x) cards but not vice-versa. This excludes unremovable equipment, which has to stay on the legacy cards. You cannot move GH(x) only equipment/weapons/wargear to the legacy GF(x) cards.
3. Use appropriate models.
4. Really, really try not to game the system because the writers use the terms “Equipment” and “Wargear” seemingly interchangeably and make no distinction between built-in items you can’t remove and purchasable items from that fighters list.

I now await the inevitable angry response.

 

[Xenith]

1. Use appropriate models.

In that instance, the VS kit comes with 2 archaeotechs and 4 grav cutters, so fully possible to put an archeo on a cutter.