N18 Do Guilder allies add to Gang Rating?

I'm sure your bed is very comfy. I too have a comfy bed that doesn't change. And when everyone else is laying in hammocks, we will not jealously call for a house rule that grants us extra pillows. Because we could have had a hammock, couldn't we?
Didn't need to call for house rules in old necromunda.

House rules wasn't required in old Necromunda. It is mandatory in N18, because so much is broken out of the box. Scenarios doesn't work RAW, weapon profiles are a mess, no control on gangs spiralling out of control etc. Sentry rules is a train wreck. Wyrd powers are useless RAW.

Have you played any previous editions of Necromunda? Do you know what you speak of? You think the spirit of necromunda is a gang with more special weapons and heavy weapons than a space marine devastator squad?
 
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Nah, Topsy is no troll, he's just gazed too long into the abyss. He and I both (separately) spent way too much time trying to make the N17 (and then N18) ruleset make sense, which is unfortunately an exercise in frustration. The fact is, nobody plays the game RAW.
I think a lot of people don't realize it because they subconsciously "fill in the blanks" so too speak, but the flaws are there, and even something as fundamental as the exact sequence for resolving multiple CC attacks is not only unclear, but impossible to determine from the rules alone.

This "guild party doesn't contribute to crew rating" is just another example of something that could have been better written. If crew rating exists and is used as a balancing tool, then it should be calculated as accurately as possible (as long as it doesn't take too much time, but adding a fixed value to one's crew rating is hardly time-consuming). I'm not saying that it completely wrecks balance or anything dramatic like that, but the ruleset would be better if it were there.
 
The rules are 100% broken, although I do think some people exaggerate the impact of that. A lot of the problems are eminently solvable simply by (as you said) "filling in the blanks." I understand how people desire clearer answers, but they're more of an ideal than a necessity in a lot of the cases.

The worse sin, imo, is the absolute lack of balance/parity without house rules. There's no interpretive solution to that issue... either you resolve to add house rules (and get your whole group on board) or you play the mess the books give you and deal with plasma gunlines, insane tactics cards plays, airbursting blast weapons, infinite credits loops from the Iron Guild, etc.
 
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Play nice, people.

This thread was started to question and perhaps come to a solution regarding allies affecting gang/crew rating, so let’s please not use this as an opportunity to derail yet another thread with complaining about perceived broken rules or imbalance. These things have been highlighted now, thank you very much, so please let’s move on to some more constructive feedback than bashing N17 to its core. For better or worse, there’s a sump for that.
 
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Yeah, so, how do we fix this then?
We should probably first come up with a credit value for those guys as if they were some kind of hired guns, then add them to get the full crew value.
As @Baffo mentioned earlier, they function differently from regular hired guns though, as they activate as a separate gang and all that. So this value should probably get multiplied by a factor <1.
They also take the place of one of your guys, but that's already taken into account by them not being part of the crew.

First of all, did we determine before how many bodyguards each party gets? It seems the subnautican comes alone and every other one works in pairs, correct?
 
It would be fairly easy to determine a credits costs for most of the Guilders. All their gear has Trading Post prices, so just find the nearest statline from any gang/hired gun and add the cost of the equipment to it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The <1 modifier should be fairly modest, since Guilders have bonuses over other Hired Guns (they auto-replenish deaths/injuries, so the controlling player can throw them around pretty flagrantly, in a way they wouldn't with their own gang members, while ignoring any removed movels for their gang's "real" bottle tests).
 
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First of all, did we determine before how many bodyguards each party gets? It seems the subnautican comes alone and every other one works in pairs, correct?
Fairly certain this is correct. Less certain about the smuggler alliance. Do they have 2 bodyguards, but should not have ogryn stats? Or have brute stats, but only 1 bodyguard? Ogryn-sized hands are not good for wielding tiny las pistols and fighting knife!
 
You didn’t and you weren’t. But I appreciate you saying so.

I was mostly trying to balance out your jadedness. I’m not offended. I like a good battle of the minds as much as you it seems.

The bit where I started to suspect troll was when you held up NCE as an example of better rules. Where we know NCE to be at least 30% red text house rules.

Thanks for the banter (and the trolling!), absolutely no hard feelings!!!
 
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Ok, lets start with the simplest Guilder party to calculate: Iron guild!
It is 3-5 generic Hive scums, but now how much 'crew rating' are they worth?
Each Hive scum 'costs' 30 credits to hire for 1 game and he/she brings 60 credits of 'free weapons/equipment', so do we take them as being worth 30 or 90 rating each?

I think most people would say 90 creds each (the value of the fighter + value of his/her equipment), meaning a max Iron guild party would instantly rise the crew rating by 450 credits for 5x basic fighter profiles armed with basic weapons and stuff, however assuming the 2 opposing gangs start off on equal ratings (lets assume this is the 1st or 2nd game of the campaign when every gang is at 1000 rating)...
The non allied gang is now the underdog by 450 rating and if you use the more fleshed out Underdog rules, that means this weaker gang can effectively spend 450 credits of 'free money' to draw/chose additional tactics/sub-plots or hire temporarily extra fighters, like for example 5x generic Hive scums for 150 credits (30 credits to hire each one), leaving the 'weaker gang' another 300 free credits to possibly hire a Named bounty hunter (or even hire named Hive scums like Scabbs instead of the generic ones) or more likely additional free Brutes (meaning that the supposedly Underdog gang ended up gaining the same 5x Hive scums as the Guild allied one + 300 extra creds of free 'help')...

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that if you try and calculate gang rating just by adding the 'value of Guild fighters+their equipment' you will end up 'over-rating' them massively, effectively punishing the gang that brought Guild allies to the game (or was forced to deploy guild allies, because of the Guard duty drawback), by giving their opponents a massive chunk of free credits to tailor their crew in response.

With all that said, I would suggest that guild allies should be rated/treated as hired guns of similar caliber, meaning they add to the gang rating only the 'cost of hiring them for 1 battle', ignoring their 'free equipment' because otherwise you just end up handing over free credits to the opposing side (by overvaluing the guild allies). In my initial example of the Iron guild's party that would mean 30 rating for each Hive scum in the guild escort, no more.

Admittedly things get complicated with the other guild parties since they bring vastly different stat lines and equipment (Slaver guild being probably the most expensive and Iron guild being probably the 'cheapest').

What do you think?
 
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The iron guild scums are worth 30 credits plus the cost of their equipment.
150 credits of inducement only buys you 5 naked scums. You still need to pay inducement money for their equipment.
Hiring a scum the normal way increases your gang rating buy 30 credits plus the cost of the equipment you purchase (rent, in fact) for them (yes, hired guns rules are broken for anything but skirmish and inducement, but that's for another thread)

A guild party of 5 scums may arguably be worse than 5 similarly equipped inducement scums, that's why we need to determine some factor to multiplicatively reduce their value.
 
When Crew rating difference gets to 400+ points, the underdog gang can start picking House Sub plots and hire 'free' Bounty hunters and Hive scums up to the rating difference (meaning you could hire Kal Jericho and Scabs for free for that game and still have a chance of Jericho sticking around for future games); that is if you use the suggested underdog 'balancing' rules from one of the latest White dwarfs.
Crew rating difference will also probably be a factor for the use of the new Underdog Tactics cards (I am guessing you can randomly draw these Underdog cards as part of the above mentioned underdog bonuses, once the difference passes a certain threshold).
Anyway, if you assigned a crew rating to the Guild allies, that could easily grant the other gang access to some pretty useful named Bounty hunters or extra brutes...

Which WD was that in?
 
The iron guild scums are worth 30 credits plus the cost of their equipment.
150 credits of inducement only buys you 5 naked scums. You still need to pay inducement money for their equipment.
Hiring a scum the normal way increases your gang rating buy 30 credits plus the cost of the equipment you purchase (rent, in fact) for them (yes, hired guns rules are broken for anything but skirmish and inducement, but that's for another thread)

A guild party of 5 scums may arguably be worse than 5 similarly equipped inducement scums, that's why we need to determine some factor to multiplicatively reduce their value.

I thought it had been clarified somewhere that when you hire generic (not named) Hive scums and Bounty hunters you just pay their 'Hiring' cost (30 and 80 creds respectively as I remember) and the ##creds of equipment was 'their gear' (aka free); you can't give them any additional equipment and you don't keep any of their equipment after the game, so having to pay to both hire the guy and all his equipment every game makes them useless and harmful to gang progression... (but that is a different issue that I though had been resolved, but apparently not in any official capacity...)
 
"Cheese is a choice" sums up every multiplayer game I've ever played. And some of the single player ones.
I don't think we can just work on the assumption that every rule we find to be "unfair" is a mistake. For all we know, this is exactly how they wanted it to be balanced.


I'm sure your bed is very comfy. I too have a comfy bed that doesn't change. And when everyone else is laying in hammocks, we will not jealously call for a house rule that grants us extra pillows. Because we could have had a hammock, couldn't we?


House rules are optional.

Necromunda isn't like competing in the ITC. If you're rocking the cheesiest meta you can, you are forcing the rest of the people in your campaign to play by the same rules or have no fun. In other words, if you are TFG, your arbitrator should take you aside and tell you to stop, or your group should, uh, stop playing with you.
 
I thought it had been clarified somewhere that when you hire generic (not named) Hive scums and Bounty hunters you just pay their 'Hiring' cost (30 and 80 creds respectively as I remember) and the ##creds of equipment was 'their gear' (aka free); you can't give them any additional equipment and you don't keep any of their equipment after the game, so having to pay to both hire the guy and all his equipment every game makes them useless and harmful to gang progression... (but that is a different issue that I though had been resolved, but apparently not in any official capacity...)
I've never heard any such clairification. My impression was the opposite, that it had been clarified somewhere that everything needed to be paid for, but nothing was kept. So it is an expensive choice nobody will make (except in unusual circumstances). Similar to Bounty Hunters.
 
I've never heard any such clairification. My impression was the opposite, that it had been clarified somewhere that everything needed to be paid for, but nothing was kept. So it is an expensive choice nobody will make (except in unusual circumstances). Similar to Bounty Hunters.

I guess this is another case of that 'automatic filling-in-the-blanks' someone already mentioned recently... Well, I'll just 'officially' House rule it to make sense (the way me and my group have been playing it by common-sense agreement), as in Pay the (30 creds) Hiring cost and the (60 creds of) limited equipment is 'free of charge', cause otherwise it doesn't work at all (named characters come with more unique/rare equipment and additional skills/rules, so their exorbitant hiring cost seems more justifyable, and anyway anybody hiring one of those will do it using the Underdog's bonus 'free creds' so it isn't such a big pill to swallow then).

Anyway, if you go with the RAW Hiring cost + Equipment cost both adding to the rating/costs for hired guns, the Iron guild's party is 3-5x 90 rating (so 270-450 rating added to the crew), but in this case it can be paralleled by the 'underdog' opponent by hiring the exact same number of Hive scums if they wanted (though I'd argue they are more likely to hire a big time named Bounty hunter or brutes for the same cred value rather than measily generic Hive scums).
That is for the probably cheapest guild party.

Lets try and calculate a rating for the Slaver entourage, starting just by adding up their equipment:
Chain lord (Leader) comes with Light Carapace (80), Bio booster (35), Stim stash (30), and either a Chain glaive (60) or Chainaxe+Shock whip (30+25) so 215-210 credits just in equipment.
The Shackleman (supposed champion) comes with Shock stave (25), Harpoon launcher (110), Flak armor (10) and a Cult icon (40), for a total of 185 creds of equipment.
Finally the 2x Pitfighters (Bodyguards) each come with a Chain glaive (60), Flak (10) and Stim stash (30) so 2x 100 creds of equipment.
All together this entourage brings in 600-595 credits in equipment.
The fighter's stat lines are a bit more challenging: The leader has stats roughly in line with a Goliath champion (or more likely the goliath-like Venator hunt champion profile) so lets say 85 creds. The Bodyguards seem comparable to Goliath Juves with an extra attack (and a skill) so let say around 50-60 points each. Finally the Shackleman is weird: he has pretty bad combat stats (except his 2 wounds) and average mental stats, especially when you remember this BS 5+ guy is carrying a Harpoon launcher (without suspensors mind you) sp I would evaluate him in line with the bodyguards at 50 points. that gives us a rough estimate of 250-ish rating for the naked fighters + 600 rating for their equipment: that is 850 extra rating without any adjusting modifiers (and my estimate of the naked fighter's values was fairly conservative).

Now how do we adjust the rating? Yes they bring 600 credits of equipment, but I'd argue it is sub-optimally allocated and in some cases very superfluous/wasted (looking at the shackleman in particular). In most cases the Pit fighter's skill won't come into play unless they get an extra activation from the Chain lord and similarly the shackleman will never be able to fire his expensive gun without extra activations from the leader, meaning that if you can pin down the Chain lord you completely nerf any combat utility/combo potential of the entourage for the round and they become just an overly equipped bunch of meat bags... And to be clear, I believe the slaver guild is one of the most potent Guild entourages in terms of fighters.
 
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I've never heard any such clairification. My impression was the opposite, that it had been clarified somewhere that everything needed to be paid for, but nothing was kept. So it is an expensive choice nobody will make (except in unusual circumstances). Similar to Bounty Hunters.
I’m almost certain I also saw it clarified by Justin whatever his name is on Facebook that this was the case.