Dominion Campaign (what a mess)

[TopsyKretts]

Been reading through the new GW4 and the Dominion campaign. Have anyone figured out:

• how to determine who is challenging who? Who can accept/refuse?
• Home Turf Advantage, does it no longer grant a Gang Relic?
• Should changes to Ganger Advancement table apply to Turf War also? New version seem to be a correction of the old one.
• Should the correction of increased advancement cost be corrected for Turf War also?
• The Juve/Champion max stat seems to be partially fixed, does this apply to Turf War also?
• How does Zone Mortalis work, "continue to place tiles until the maximum number is placed, as described by the scenario", does any scenario describe this "maximum number"?

In Turf War, the gang with the higher gang rating buys advancements and hired guns first, before a battle. In Dominion campaign, it is the opposite. Does this random change make sense? Or did they just change things randomly for fun?

When setting up the Zone Mortalis battlefield, there's some really strange choices made by the authors:

• Tiles is placed starting with the defender (or winner of a roll-off if there is no defender)
• Doors is placed starting with the defender(or winner of a roll-off if there is no defender)
• D6 Barricades is placed starting with the defender (or winner of a roll-off if there is no defender)
• Ductways however is started by the attacker (or the winner of a roll-off if there is no attacker). Why? Is it worth making this change for that single ductway per player?
• Loot caskets is also different, starting with the winner of a roll-off (regardless of attackers or defenders). Why? Worth the additional complexity?

When determining the scenario, roll 2D6 on a table to determine scenario. We currently have 31 scenarios, but 75% of the games will either be Border Dispute, Stand-off or Sabotage. These 3 scenarios are the first to be released in Gang War 1. Sounds quite repetitive and boring to spend so much time on the same old scenarios?


This campaign has a lot of instructions on how to play, but parts of it doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[MusingWarboss]

I’m almost. Almost. Certain that Turf War is junked now.

I’m saying it because the leaders pack had pre-printed rosters in and they are the Dominion ones. It may well be that Turf War was something worked on by the original designer but since it has been handed over to a new team they’ve been working on an alternative but similar system from scratch rather than iron out a previous designers work.

Like I said in another thread, if a new Gang War book has something in that existed in previous ones, the newest book is supposed to be the one you use.

Of course really, the choice is down to you.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Ok, so Gang War 1 except for the 3d rules is now worthless...

What you're saying makes a lot of sense. But there's some ties still left to Turf War, for example Chaos Cult got modifiers to their Ritual. If it is the first battle of a Turf war, that modifier doesn't apply... I guess they would be better of just saying if it is the first battle of a campaign...

So messy this has become!

 

[TopsyKretts]

There's just more and more I don't understand. Why does an 'arbitrator' need to track gangs' reputation, gang rating and wealth at all times???

 

[MusingWarboss]

And the Escher and Goliath profiles!! They're OK. New HWL admittedly but the profiles and costs are still valid!!

Have Chaos Cultists had a new PDF since GW4 was released? Or are you referring to the old White Dwarf??

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if they use the wrong terminology, especially if said material was written pre-Dominion but only just released or very closely released.

I might be wrong here (I'll check later) but the infamous leaders pack updated Zone Mortalis cards do specify tile numbers I'm sure... As for other pre-Dominion stuff, meh. It'll either be updated or forgotten. It's why I wish they wouldn't pull this rolling release stunt on an already expensive hobby.

 

[Alobar]

My reading of dominion is positive. It's a good but different way of running a campaign. Seems well structured to me.

Regarding zone mortalis setup:
Defender gets to set up most of the stuff first - tiles, doors and barricades. This allows them some hope of actually defending.
The ducts are an attacking tool, so giving them to the attacker makes perfect sense and balances the setup process.
Loot caskets are useful but not important to either really, so randomising them also makes perfect sense, to me at least.

 

[Ben_S]

I’m almost. Almost. Certain that Turf War is junked now.
...
Like I said in another thread, if a new Gang War book has something in that existed in previous ones, the newest book is supposed to be the one you use.

As a general rule, this is right, barring the odd mistake that creeps in to the updates. But in other systems GW are quite keen on promoting different ways to play (e.g. open, matched, narrative). It's possible that they simply came up with something different and want to offer players the choice.

The problem, of course, is not being explicit about which it is that they're doing. I guess that may lend weight to the view that these are supposed to replace the original campaign rules (as they'd be less likely to come out and admit to problems with them that require complete replacement).

 

[MusingWarboss]

But in other systems GW are quite keen on promoting different ways to play (e.g. open, matched, narrative).

I agree it’s totally possibly to flit between Turf and Dominion if you want to. But funny you mention the “three ways to play” because in GW4 you get

• Skirmish
• Tournament
• Dominion Campaign

Which is awfully similar to

• Open
• Matched
• Narrative

Don’t you think??

 

[TopsyKretts]

I might be wrong here (I'll check later) but the infamous leaders pack updated Zone Mortalis cards do specify tile numbers I'm sure... As for other pre-Dominion stuff, meh. It'll either be updated or forgotten. It's why I wish they wouldn't pull this rolling release stunt on an already expensive hobby.

Yeah this exactly! Haphazardly invalidating previous content by changing terminology or rules. I wish they would be forced to work in some IT tech business, maybe just for one week: messing up just a single character could crash a web server, stop programs or databases from working.

 

[TopsyKretts]

My reading of dominion is positive. It's a good but different way of running a campaign. Seems well structured to me.

Regarding zone mortalis setup:
Defender gets to set up most of the stuff first - tiles, doors and barricades. This allows them some hope of actually defending.
The ducts are an attacking tool, so giving them to the attacker makes perfect sense and balances the setup process.
Loot caskets are useful but not important to either really, so randomising them also makes perfect sense, to me at least.

If Dominion is good in your eyes, how do you decide who gets to challenge who?

How does Connected skill work, it seems you can buy any number of items from the Trading Post below the 2D6 roll and it doesn't even require a Leader/Champion action to roll.

 

[Alobar]

If Dominion is good in your eyes, how do you decide who gets to challenge who?

How does Connected skill work, it seems you can buy any number of items from the Trading Post below the 2D6 roll and it doesn't even require a Leader/Champion action to roll.

Challenges.
I assume a challenge must be able to be played - ie, both players are present and ready to play. If there are lots of people, roll a dice to determine the order. Or similar. I think most groups will be able to work that out, but I get your point it's not really specified.
Connected. Dunno. I think savant skills are for beardy van saar so haven't touched em yet.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Thanks, I thought I missed some part detailing that. Rolling off works for me, but if they gonna continue their rambling of random thoughts, I'd prefer they'd be on the actual topics of game play (for example who gets to challenge) rather than specifying when to drink tea or whether to play 2d or 3d terrain based on the size of the venue.

They can spend a section explaining real life may intrude on hobby time, and if a player has a good reason for failing to attend a battle, leeway is encouraged. But offer no thoughts on who gets to challenge. I really hate this over-management. Let me schedule games, I can do that perfectly fine without buying books.

 

[MusingWarboss]

but if they gonna continue their rambling of random thoughts, I'd prefer they'd be on the actual

They do write these book like you’ve just brought a very expensive magazine don’t they? I though that reading the opening part of GW4, its like reading the Editors column.

 

[Benoksen]

It certainly is... weird, avoiding more graphic derscription, do define how much time players should spend on campaigns instead of finishing the system for how they should run. I already have a hard time convincing old gamer buddies to come to play. I don't think it's gonna help to say "Listen guys, now there's this whole new campaign system. You just have to let real life come in second line for three weeks, Then you can focus back on work, family and such for a full week before we take another three week campaign session to find campaign winners". However, if we could play when we wanted, possibly stretching the described fighting over three months and then just continuing with new goals...

Well, I shall not go further in that direction as it can only lead to the sump.

I think again we have a halfway finished system, but looking away from ludicrous from above there is a lot of good things intoduced to N17 in the Dominion rules. First of all income from territory rather from heros that don't get hurt in battle is really something I've been hoping for. Also figting for actual and defined territory gives much more meaning than over an abstract turf. This opens for campaigns where gang and it's changing members is the force to build an Underhive "empire" that largely is the true power of the gang, or play in that direction.

Who challenges who over which terrain and other things are still open questions, as far as I can see. Naturally everone wants to fight for the best available terrain, and since most games are for two players, what to do? A random system, or something, is not too hard to come up with, but I would rather have somehing on this in the book I buy, rather than how to time manage play with my friends.

 

[TopsyKretts]

They nobody should be disappointed Turf is gone. But what about the new Wealth, is it used anywhere other than to give a Trophy at the end of a campaign?

 

[Lyracian]

I already have a hard time convincing old gamer buddies to come to play. I don't think it's gonna help to say "Listen guys, now there's this whole new campaign system.

The more they release the more I think about going back to the old game. It is nice to have new models but they do not seem to have much of a clue where they want to go with the game.

Who challenges who over which terrain and other things are still open questions, as far as I can see. Naturally everone wants to fight for the best available terrain, and since most games are for two players, what to do? A random system, or something, is not too hard to come up with, but I would rather have somehing on this in the book I buy, rather than how to time manage play with my friends.

You could draw a map with all the territories on and people can only attack those they are adjacent too.

They nobody should be disappointed Turf is gone. But what about the new Wealth, is it used anywhere other than to give a Trophy at the end of a campaign?

Is it gone or do we just have two systems to choice from? Those of us already playing Turf War might just carry on with it. A lot of people purchased GW1 but with each release less people get the books.

 

[TopsyKretts]

You could draw a map with all the territories on and people can only attack those they are adjacent too.

Yeah it limits the choices a challenger can make, but still doesn't specify who gets to challenge who. It is of critical importance, for example if I get to challenge you every time, I may lose many games, but I never lose a Territory cause the challenger's Territories are never at stake. It will always be the challenged player who got something to lose. A map doesn't solve this.

Is it gone or do we just have two systems to choice from? Those of us already playing Turf War might just carry on with it. A lot of people purchased GW1 but with each release less people get the books.

The quote was a response to the statement by MusingWarboss being "almost certain Turf War is junk now". If it's not, then you are correct it is not gone and we do have two systems to choose from.

The problem is, Games Workshop is making a ton of "systems" that can be combined in different ways. Some of these systems have proven to be dead on arrival (underhive system), others may die during the evolution of this game (early cult version of psychic/wyrd powers), with or without replacements. The speculation that Turf War was something developed by someone no longer working on Necromunda do make sense to me. In that case, they may just silently let that die, having every new release only compatible with the latest Campaign system (Dominion).

Since GW4 Scenarios include Turf as rewards, that may not be the case though.

 

[Lyracian]

Yeah it limits the choices a challenger can make, but still doesn't specify who gets to challenge who. It is of critical importance, for example if I get to challenge you every time, I may lose many games, but I never lose a Territory cause the challenger's Territories are never at stake. It will always be the challenged player who got something to lose. A map doesn't solve this.

Perhaps the answer is that each player can make one challenge and defends against each challenge they receive?

The problem then is having actual availability of the players to play several games. Also if they lose the territory after the first game what happens to the other challenges they have received or do you resolve it as one big multi-player game...

 

[MusingWarboss]

Apologies if my speculation caused confusion @Lyracian! It’s mostly that given Specialist Games using each new Gang War to introduce things that often replace others that now they have included a new campaign system it’s highly likely that this is the way forward.

A few other things back that up. First they have released in the leaders pack printed rosters for the Dominion system. Not Turf War. And there’s 50 of them. They clearly plan for that pad to be used a lot.

Secondly they have said (if only I could remember where) that they have been taking this Dominion system to playtest at select groups, the tournament rules at tournaments etc. Clearly they’ve tried to get these to run smoothly (ymmv).

Third there is a suspicion that Gang War 1 was rushed out because there was disquiet that Necromunda was now a Board Game. I fully believe the idea that GW1 was probably supposed to be released later, maybe even when GW2 came out? This could also explain why some of their other material is rushed, or just out of sync with each other.

IF it was rushed out, then it’s highly likely the Turf War was something being worked on by the original designer and patched up and printed. Now we have a new team of designers given point 2 above it seems like they have taken the opportunity to create a new campaign system from the ground up.

So yeah, speculation maybe and nothing stops you using it [Turf War] at all if you wish! Just don’t expect a lot of support and I bet the new scenarios in GW4 were make a while back and not updated for Dominion. Makes no sense why they’d include new scenarios for an older campaign and none for the new one in the book it’s released.

 

[Lyracian]

So yeah, speculation maybe and nothing stops you using it [Turf War] at all if you wish! Just don’t expect a lot of support and I bet the new scenarios in GW4 were make a while back and not updated for Dominion. Makes no sense why they’d include new scenarios for an older campaign and none for the new one in the book it’s released.

There lack of proof readers. Probably another rushed product with different people working on different bits then all just thrown together at the last moment.