N18 Dual pistols and melee

[JawRippa]

How do dual pistols work in close quarters?

If I understand this correctly , RAW it is impossible to attack with both pistols in melee? Also you get +1A for having picking 2 sidearms, loaded or not, however you still attack with only 1 gun and rest Attacks will be unarmed?

 

[O'Tramels]

As i understand the rule, if you have more than one sidearm weapon you could assign only one dice to each sidearm weapon. So, if you have for example 3 attacks and 2 autopistol IMO you can make 2 autopistol attack and 1 unarmed attack

 

[Ben_S]

If you have two pistols, then you can assign one dice to each (should you have no other Melee weapons). Any remaining attack dice would then have to be Unarmed.

 

[Thorgor]

You can choose up to two (three with GSC Alpha Extra arm) weapons (more accurately, two (three) weapon profiles) with the Melee or Sidearm trait. Weapons that are Out of Ammo cannot be chosen (see RB p67 "the weapon cannot be used again until it is reloaded"). If you choose two weapons, you get +1 attack dice (presumably, you get +2 attack dice when using three weapons).
When allocating attack dice, you first allocate 1 dice to each chosen weapon with the Sidearm trait. Then the rest is divided as evenly as possible among the remaining weapons or, if all the weapons used have the Sidearm trait, are made with the Unarmed profile.

 

[almic85]

I read it the same way you do @JawRippa

Only one sidearm is allowed to be used in combat because all other attacks need to be done by a weapon with the melee trait.

There are a lot of people that disagree though and think that the only limitation is that each sidearm can only be allocated one attack each.

 

[Silly Vasili]

If I am not mistaken, and I have not read the posts preceeding mine, here is how it goes: Pistols only allow to allocate a single attack dice. It is only logical to assume that if you have two pistols, each pistol gets a single attack dice, and any other attack above that? Are considered unarmed attacks. Think of it as the fighter going for pistol-whipping, headbutts or the good 'ole kick to the groin after unloading his guns.

 

[kendoka]

Yes, with regards to using Pistols in CC, I agree:
A. One shooting attack per arm equipped with a pistol with the Sidearm trait (and not out of ammo). Roll one FP dice (even if rapid fire (x) >1) for each pistol - and use WS (not BS) with no accuracy modifiers.
B. Any remaining attacks are unarmed.

Also, there are many different writings on the subject - incl. three (!) different ways to explain how/if to use Firepower Dice in CC in Dark Uprising Rulebook (page 17, 18 and 41).
Page 17: roll fp dice when attacking...
Page 18: roll fp dice when making a ranged attack... (implying not in CC)
Page 41: roll fp when attacking with a ranged weapon (incl. in cc)...

 

[Devilmixer]

if you have 2 weapon with sidearm trait, you can make one attack with each

 

[sumpthing]

Yes, with regards to using Pistols in CC, I agree:
A. One shooting attack per arm equipped with a pistol with the Sidearm trait (and not out of ammo). Roll one FP dice (even if rapid fire (x) >1) for each pistol - and use WS (not BS) with no accuracy modifiers.
B. Any remaining attacks are unarmed.

Also, there are many different writings on the subject - incl. three (!) different ways to explain how/if to use Firepower Dice in CC in Dark Uprising Rulebook (page 17, 18 and 41).
Page 17: roll fp dice when attacking...
Page 18: roll fp dice when making a ranged attack... (implying not in CC)
Page 41: roll fp when attacking with a ranged weapon (incl. in cc)...

I'm just curious what an fp dice is? Fungal paranoia? Furious porridge? Force powers?

I know you're taking about the fire power dice but sometimes my brain goes on little journeys to strange places...

 

[Thorgor]

Only one sidearm is allowed to be used in combat because all other attacks need to be done by a weapon with the melee trait.

While this is a possible reading, I'd argue that it's not a reasonable one.
The rules also state earlier:

A fighter can use up to two weapons with the Melee or Sidearm trait, but only one if it also has the Unwieldy trait.

"two weapons with the Melee or Sidearm trait" includes two weapons with the Sidearm trait. Note how the rules then go out of their way to add a restriction for Unwieldy weapons. If their was such a restriction for Sidearm weapons, this would have been the perfect spot.

It used to be even clearer in the N17 rules:

A fighter can use up to two weapons, each of which must have either the Melee or Pistol trait.

Here, it's crystal clear that using two pistols in close combat was an option.

I don't think it's reasonable to assume that this was changed in the rewriting between N18 and N17. The intent has always been for dual sidearms to be usable in close combat (but with only one attack dice each).

 

[almic85]

when you read the “pistols at close quarters” rule ,copied below from the rulebook, it quite clearly states that any remaining attacks must be made allocated to a weapon with the Melee trait.

PISTOLS AT CLOSE QUARTERS: A weapon
with the Sidearm trait can only have one Attack dice allocated to it. Any remaining attacks must be allocated to a weapon with the Melee trait. If a fighter has no other weapons with the Melee trait, any remaining attacks must be Unarmed attacks, as described above.

The section you refer to, copied below, when read in conjunction with the above clearly worded rule would mean that the two weapons can either be two Melee weapons or a Melee weapon and a Sidearm.

“A fighter can use up to two weapons with the Melee or Sidearm trait, but only one if it also has the Unwieldy trait.”

It’s worth noting that the pistols at close quarters rule does not prevent the section allowing two weapons to be selected, it only clarifies the “or” statement to preclude one of the three potential combinations.

An ambiguous and general sentence followed by a clear and specific sentence usually means you should follow the more specific sentence.

 

[Thorgor]

Nothing says you can allocate attack dice to only one weapon with the Sidearm trait.

It's pretty clear that you can choose to use 2 Sidearm weapons. Again, it was even clearer in N17 and there is no reason to assume it has been changed. Technically, the N18 version is only ambiguous in that it's unclear whether a weapon with both Melee or Sidearm can be chosen (but those don't exist so who cares).

Let's break the rest down.

A weapon with the Sidearm trait can only have one attack dice allocated to it

"A", not "One" or "The". So you allocate one dice to each weapon with the Sidearm trait. This sentence sole purpose is to precludes the attacker from allocating more than one dice to a weapon with the Sidearm trait. It doesn't say anything about the number of those weapons that can be used at the same time.

Any remaining attacks must be allocated to a weapon with the Melee trait

While we may have remaining attack dice to allocate, no weapon with the Melee trait is used in this scenario so what we are asked to do is an impossible task. Therefore, let's skip to the next step.

If a fighter has no other weapons with the Melee trait, any remaining attacks must be Unarmed attacks

So we do that.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Apart from the ambiguous rules, this also goes way back in history for GW games. You could use 2 pistols in close combat in original Necromunda and related games like GorkaMorka? If I'm going to change that now, I need 2 things:

1. Clearly written rules that 2 sidearms cannot be used in close combat (unambigously!)
2. Good reason why this rule/change is made (improve balance and/or fun gameplay)

The situation now does not fulfill any of the 2 criteria.

This reminds me of the discussion if natural rolls of 1 was automatic fail for hit in ranged/melee attacks. Books didn't spell it out. Up until the FAQ, I still ruled it as fail, because of the same 2 criteria.

 

[JawRippa]

I think it is better to use N17 version.
So, according to N17 a correct interpretation would be:

Fighter A and B have 1A in base profile.
1). Fighter A charges with 2 pistols, he can do 1 attack with each (with FP dice for each), followed by 1 unarmed attack.
2). Fighter B charges with 1 pistol, he can do 1 attack with first followed by 1 unarmed attack.

 

[almic85]

I’m pretty sure the Pistols at Close Quarters rule is also included in N17 as this same discussion popped up when the game was released, but I would need to if out the old rule books to double check.

As for unambiguous there is a rule with the heading Pistols at Close Quarters written in the rulebook book that takes a whole paragraph to explain how they can be used that is blatantly being ignored in favour of a single sentence rule designed to allow you to dual wield close combat weapons.

To be clear here if we did a community rules version and removed the second and third sentences from the Pistols at Close Quarters rule it would align with your interpretation and I wouldn’t really be fussed about it.

I also wouldn’t mind changing the tiles to allow pistols/sidearms to make more than one attack in close combat.

 

[JawRippa]

I also wouldn’t mind changing the tiles to allow pistols/sidearms to make more than one attack in close combat.

I agree with everything you've said but this. Pistols would become better than CC weapons in any possible way. Also pistols can have rapid fire, so a single pistol on a 3A character could result in 9 hits.

 

[Silly Vasili]

Just a quick question: Is the Rapid Fire rule applied to close combat? I think it should because it makes sense that an automatic weapon would do (horrifying) wonders in close quarters. On one hand it totally destroys the game's balance, but on the other it really is the reason why submachine guns were created.

As ridiculous as it sounds to demand realism in a game, much less one set in the future with mutants and what not, it really is a difficult question. What do you guys think?

 

[Thorgor]

Yes, Rapid Fire works in CC. I'm pretty sure they confirmed that on FB or something, but it was a long time ago.
At least, it works in that you roll the FP dice and can get multiple hits. I'm not sure about spreading extra hits to other nearby targets.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Don't think, know! Rapid Fire do apply to close combat. This has been discussed extensively before, but there's no doubt about it today. Not sure it is all that unbalanced though?

 

[TopsyKretts]

At least, it works in that you roll the FP dice and can get multiple hits. I'm not sure about spreading extra hits to other nearby targets.

Different targets may receive different hit modifiers (backstrike, assist, interference etc), so at minimum you would have to target the rapid fire attack to the one most difficult to hit, if keeping it similar to ranged attack.