N18 Equipment set clarification needed

[MagicTsan]

1. When creating equipment sets is it allowed to have the same item appear in multiple sets?

2. Are you allowed to leave out equipment entirely?
2.1. Random example. A champion has:
Lasgun
Plasmagun
Auto Pistol
Power Sword

Can you create just one(1) equipment set that holds: Plasmagun + Auto Pistol + Power Sword, leaving out the Lasgun. And have no other equipment sets?

 

[boatie]

1) Yes, explicitly allowed in the rules (check the post-battle section that discussing distributing equipment after the trading post).

2) Yes, this is allowed. When a champ/leader is sent equipment, you 'may' add it to any or all equipment sets. That implies you can choose not to.

RAW there is no limit on the number of equipment sets you can have, or (as far as I can see) a requirement that they must be distinct. Which actually makes the whole system kind of silly. If you are doing a scenario allowing you to choose your equipment set then you can create a new set that has exactly what you want.
In theory the system matters when you pick a random equipment set. You cannot delete an equipment set, and so this means you might end up with your super-powered champ turning up with only a single knife and no armour if you have ever used that for any reason.
In practice this can be bypassed by creating an ungodly number of equipment sets. If you have 2 sets already, but now want to ensure you get one of them for the next fight, then create 998 copies of one of them. Nice, now there is a 999/1000 chance of getting the one you want next time. And if you then decide you prefer some third set up, then create 10^6 copies of that new set. And then 10^9 copies of the new one. Theoretically this is allowed (if impractical).
Our group decided that we didn't like the idea of random sets sometimes meaning an old set you had abandoned might return, since it seemed to discourage experimentation. We've ended up just allowing custom sets for each fight, but saying that they have to be picked in advance before you know which fighters/sets your opponent is bringing.

 

[Jumbley]

1. When creating equipment sets is it allowed to have the same item appear in multiple sets?

2. Are you allowed to leave out equipment entirely?
2.1. Random example. A champion has:
Lasgun
Plasmagun
Auto Pistol
Power Sword

Can you create just one(1) equipment set that holds: Plasmagun + Auto Pistol + Power Sword, leaving out the Lasgun. And have no other equipment sets?

Weapon allocation is a heck of a can of worms in this game. Prepare yourself: this will get ugly.

RAW on discarding/stashing weapons:
Players are reminded that no fighter can discard a
weapon once added to their Fighter cards. Leaders and
Champions however can have multiple equipment sets as
described below.

So, in answer to 2 - that looks to be a definitive no. RAW, you can't un-equip a Weapon from any fighter once it's been added to the fighter card. In your example with the Lasgun, it would have to be present in at least one of his equipment sets.

Your question 1 is a bit harder to answer. My take, considering that the Equipment Set is literally a 2nd fighter card for the fighter, is that you'd need the equipment for each loadout to be separate. I don't really have any argument to back that up, though. It could just as easily go the other way, and I don't see why not.

In practice, a lot of people ignore the restrictive weapons and equipment rules. Personally haven't seen it cause any issues whatsoever.

EDIT:

When a champ/leader is sent equipment, you 'may' add it to any or all equipment sets. That implies you can choose not to.

I'm trying to figure out how to reconcile this with the other snippet, and with the equipment rules in general. You can give equipment to a fighter... but not equip them with it? How is this supposed to work? If you're writing in a weapon on a fighter card, that's equipping them with it, no?

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

Here's my take on equipment sets;
> You can never remove an item from an equipment set it's assigned to.
> You can create new equipment sets, and add new equipment to existing equipment sets.
> Any of the fighter's existing equipment can be included in any new set, empthasis on 'can'.
> But each set much be unique.
> And you can never remove an equipment set.

Additionally, don't forget distribute equipment is a post battle step. So creating a new equipment set in response to your next game/enemy is cheating.

So, say you start the campaign with a laagun, autopistol, and fighting knife.
But you buy plasmagun.
You can create a new set with the plasmagun, autopistol, and fighting knife - but the first set with the lasgun must remain in 'circulation'.
Then, you buy a powersword.
You can create another new set with the plasmagun, autopistol, and powersword. But the previous two sets must remain in circulation as well.

 

[Thorgor]

As with many things in this ruleset, the equipment rules as written are needlessly convoluted and ultimately unclear.

If you want to implement the "put away the clippers" mindset in a way that makes sense, here is what I would house-rule:

Each fighter has an associated 'locker' to store their equipment. What you can store in a locker and whether or not you can put it back in the gang's stash during the post-battle sequence depends on the fighter type and equipment type:

Fighter types	Weapons	Armour	Other Wargear
Ganger Juve	max 3 (Unwieldy weapon count as 2) Can only be put back in the stash when the fighter dies or leaves the gang	max 1 Can always be put back in the stash unless the fighter is currently captured	no limit Can always be put back in the stash unless the fighter is currently captured
Leader Champion	no limit Can only be put back in the stash when the fighter dies or leaves the gang	no limit Can always be put back in the stash unless the fighter is currently captured	no limit Can always be put back in the stash unless the fighter is currently captured

Then fighter cards are built during the post-battle sequence from the equipment in the locker following those restrictions:

• Gangers and Juves must have exactly one fighter card, using everything from their locker
• Leaders and Champions can have as many fighter cards as you wish, using any combination of items from their locker (one item can be used for multiple fighter cards). Each fighter card can only have up to 3 weapons (Unwieldy weapons count as 2) and up to 1 armour. Each fighter card must use a unique combination of items. Fighter cards can be deleted during the post-battle sequence (fighter cards are also automatically deleted if they reference an item that is no longer in the fighter's locker). It's possible for an item in the locker not to be used by any fighter card.

No change can be made to the locker or fighter cards of a fighter who is currently captured.

 

[Scabs]

Here's my take on equipment sets;
> You can never remove an item from an equipment set it's assigned to.
> You can create new equipment sets, and add new equipment to existing equipment sets.
> Any of the fighter's existing equipment can be included in any new set, empthasis on 'can'.
> But each set much be unique.
> And you can never remove an equipment set.

Additionally, don't forget distribute equipment is a post battle step. So creating a new equipment set in response to your next game/enemy is cheating.

So, say you start the campaign with a laagun, autopistol, and fighting knife.
But you buy plasmagun.
You can create a new set with the plasmagun, autopistol, and fighting knife - but the first set with the lasgun must remain in 'circulation'.
Then, you buy a powersword.
You can create another new set with the plasmagun, autopistol, and powersword. But the previous two sets must remain in circulation as well.

Weapons are wargear (including grenades) are different. Once "assigned" fighters fall in love with their weapons, and wont let them go. This is major change from the previous version of the game. So no need for clippers to change fighter's weapons between games.

You can purchase new weapons and wargear. There are limits to how many weapons a fighter can carry (typically 3). Characters can have a separate character card . But, cannot exceed the limit of 3 on a card.

I've never used a separate character card. I don't know why I would, I've never specialized weapons to the degree I would use them for different games. I guess you could, but you are probably assigning more than one very expensive weapons to one guy. Seems redundant. But, why not? Who's gonna know?

You can never remove a weapon. You can move equipment (wargear and grenades) to the Stash, or sell them.

There's no restriction on moving weapons between the same fighter's equipment cards, AFAIK. Who's gonna know? I'm not being facetious, that's really behind the scenes stuff that opponent's aren't going to be bothered with, anyway. You paid for the weapons, you use them as you see fit. So, in your example, the character could trade weapons and wargear as you see fit. But, the more likely (and cost effective) way to manage this is to be patient and plan ahead. Weapons that aren't being used are not helping the cause.

 

[sumpthing]

I know this isn't a house rules thread.... But we didn't have access to the trading post until we were 4 games deep, and then we allowed selling weapons equipment etc at half price if players wanted to change loadouts etc...

We got the clippers back out we all figured it would make sense if a champion wanted to trade in his heavy stubber for something with a bit more dakka after a while... Or that leader with creds to burn might want to ditch a stub pistol sidearm for something more extravagant!

 

[MagicTsan]

Thanks for all the views guys. Much appreciated.

After reading all of it, our group has decided to cut the loadout rule more or less entirely.
- Gangers and juves are still unable to change items once equipped.
- Leaders and champions can have all the items they want from which they can create a loadout (following the standard rules eg. max 3 weapons). This loadout can be changed after each fight if a player so desire, and there will never exist more than this one loadout.
Lastly. In scenarios with random selection, only this one loadout counts.

 

[cronevald]

Thanks for all the views guys. Much appreciated.

After reading all of it, our group has decided to cut the loadout rule more or less entirely.
- Gangers and juves are still unable to change items once equipped.
- Leaders and champions can have all the items they want from which they can create a loadout (following the standard rules eg. max 3 weapons). This loadout can be changed after each fight if a player so desire, and there will never exist more than this one loadout.
Lastly. In scenarios with random selection, only this one loadout counts.

This is my preferred way to handle it as well. Hasn't caused any problems yet.

 

[TopsyKretts]

We change any weapons between any fighter as we see fit (within normal class limitations). We had zero problems and we don't need to cut or convert painted minis so win-win. This is what we done for 20+ years play Necromunda. I see no reason why to stop now (and I don't see unclear and strange rules as a reason to change this).