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N18 Escher Chem-alchemy in Stash

Barking Agatha

Ganger
Honored Tribesman
Jan 12, 2021
50
24
28
Hi! I'm trying to figure out the Escher (without much success), and here's a question that came up:

I've just been challenged to a battle by a gang in a scenario where they can turn out the lights (Pitch Black rules). As it happens, I have a few doses of Wide-Eye saved up in my stash for just such an occasion.

Can I use them?

Thanks!
 

Vonvilkee

Gang Hero
Jan 7, 2018
805
589
108
Bellingham, Washington USA
Technically I think they have to be added to the fighters that will use them... Wargear right? Once they are on a fighter you have the option of using them at the beginning of the battle or even holding them and using an action in game to take the dose.

If for some reason you end up not using all the wide-eye it gets a bit tricky to put back in stash by raw (Have to add some wargear to removed wargear <shakes head>).

That covers it from my understanding (as long as it is considered wargear) book is too far away from hand right now.
 
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Kiro The Avenger

Gang Hero
Apr 4, 2018
1,197
1,571
128
Bristol, UK
Technically, no.
You distribute equipment to fighters in the post battle sequence.
Your opponent will challenge you in the pre-battle sequence of the next game.
So, technically, by the time you know who you're playing it's too late to equip the chems you want to use.

It seems to me that the Devs hadn't considered this though, I very much get the impression that part of the purpose of chems is to tailor them to the situation you will find yourself in. However, that would be impossible following the rules as written. Therefore rules as intended you could argue you still can change it around.
 

Barking Agatha

Ganger
Honored Tribesman
Jan 12, 2021
50
24
28
Thanks. That's what I figured, but I was hoping for a different answer. :cry:

The thing that bothers me about this is that it leaves you with three options: You either a) Try to guess who your next opponent will be and prepare for them, b) Refuse to play anyone else until you've played the opponent that you prepared for, or c) Carry all of it around with you at all times, inflating your Gang Rating with useless chems unless you happen to be in the right situation.

Is there any chance that we might rule otherwise? It is the unique mechanic for House Escher, after all. The other Houses don't have to wrack their brains figuring out how to use theirs!
 

JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
1,063
1,377
133
Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Thanks. That's what I figured, but I was hoping for a different answer. :cry:

The thing that bothers me about this is that it leaves you with three options: You either a) Try to guess who your next opponent will be and prepare for them, b) Refuse to play anyone else until you've played the opponent that you prepared for, or c) Carry all of it around with you at all times, inflating your Gang Rating with useless chems unless you happen to be in the right situation.

Is there any chance that we might rule otherwise? It is the unique mechanic for House Escher, after all. The other Houses don't have to wrack their brains figuring out how to use theirs!
Its a core equipment/wargear problem. Same would be with my Goliaths fighting your Escher equipped with gas weapons. Let's say that I have some gasmasks in stash and want to use those to have some protection against your main way of downing my gangers right after I've learned that you are my opponent. Is that gamey? The answer would vary depending on your gaming group.

Personally I think that tooling up against specific opponent right before the battle starts is a fair game. Otherwise all "counter" equipment in the game is useless because it bloats your rating like crazy, making you lose games against gangs that you didn't tool up against. I think that the most "fair" method would be allowing a fighter to pre-equip such wargear pre-battle, however to do that you have to pass an Intelligence test for every item. Obviously if you've failed, you can't test Intelligence on another item of the same type. Also you update your gang rating after equipping wargear.
 
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Kiro The Avenger

Gang Hero
Apr 4, 2018
1,197
1,571
128
Bristol, UK
My group has created a new wargear trait, 'situational'. Essentially, it's for stuff like chems, gasmasks, photogoggles, etc that are, well, situational.
These can be freely moved to and from the stash at the start of the choose crews step of the pre-battle sequence.
It's still theoretical as the End Times have prevented any campaigns to trial it, but I really like the rule as it solves this very real issue.
 

MrAndersson

Gang Hero
Sep 18, 2018
585
398
68
Halmstad, Sweden
Another example of how this game needs house rules. Kiros solution sounds like a good fix to this particular problem. I'm going to bring that up with my group once Nurgle's grip on the world has been broken.
 

Barking Agatha

Ganger
Honored Tribesman
Jan 12, 2021
50
24
28
Its a core equipment/wargear problem. Same would be with my Goliaths fighting your Escher equipped with gas weapons. Let's say that I have some gasmasks in stash and want to use those to have some protection against your main way of downing my gangers right after I've learned that you are my opponent. Is that gamey? The answer would vary depending on your gaming group.

I do see the point, but it seems unfair on House Escher. Your Goliaths get Gene-Smithing, which is permanent and always works. Orlock gets Legendary Names. Van Saar gets Cyberteknica. Escher have access to special chems that seem to be designed to fight specific opponents, but actually can't be used in that way?

For example, if you do wear gasmasks as protection against 'my main way of downing your gangers', all I need to do is put the Acidic trait on my gas weapons, which neutralizes your gasmasks. Which illustrates the point, because if you don't wear the gasmasks then I'm just carrying around a useless chem that raises my gang rating and doesn't help me at all!
 

JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
1,063
1,377
133
Saint-Petersburg, Russia
I'm not going to deny that Genesmithing can be easily abused and is the most powerful House boon so far, however that's beside the point. RAW you can't pre-equip wargear like stimms or gaseous ammo. Its up to your gaming group to allow it. What I've suggested is a general solution to "counter measure" items being hard to use. Talk it out with your arbitrator, maybe he'll alow equipping specific stiimms right before the battle.

In general, the problem goes much deeper: escher alchemy should not be one time use. Instead they should refill after battle, but come with drawbacks such as addiction or "overdose" effects like stimm slug stash. Otherwise they will always be a suboptimal upgrade compared to permament boosts.
 
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Vonvilkee

Gang Hero
Jan 7, 2018
805
589
108
Bellingham, Washington USA
I'm not going to deny that Genesmithing can be easily abused and is the most powerful House boon so far, however that's beside the point. RAW you can't pre-equip wargear like stimms or gaseous ammo. Its up to your gaming group to allow it. What I've suggested is a general solution to "counter measure" items being hard to use. Talk it out with your arbitrator, maybe he'll alow equipping specific stiimms right before the battle.

In general, the problem goes much deeper: escher alchemy should not be one time use. Instead they should refill after battle, but come with drawbacks such as addiction or "overdose" effects like stimm slug stash. Otherwise they will always be a suboptimal upgrade compared to permament boosts.
Danger and the total disregard of safety would have been a way better downside than single use... Mostly because of how things work. You do have the option of just carrying the chem until you actually need it instead of using it pre battle. I think the rules intended that they'd be used just before you need it rather than pre battle most of the time and that the flexibility of threatening was worth the cost.

but really who cares about the gang rating there is typically an honor tied to having the highest and there isn't much of a balancing factor for it in the actual rules. Partly this comes from the community "improvements" to underdog status...
 

Barking Agatha

Ganger
Honored Tribesman
Jan 12, 2021
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As far as we know, if the difference between ratings is 400 or more you get that many credits to spend on temporary Gangers, Hive Scum, a Bounty Hunter, etc. Is that wrong?
 

almic85

Cranky Git
Tribe Council
Oct 30, 2014
1,805
3,066
163
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
As far as we know, if the difference between ratings is 400 or more you get that many credits to spend on temporary Gangers, Hive Scum, a Bounty Hunter, etc. Is that wrong?

There are a couple of different official mechanics that give bonuses to the underdog, but they are all over the place.

The most common is to just give an extra tactic card for every 100 creds difference.

There is also access to hive scum and bounty hunters as you alluded to in another set of rules. I believe this was part of a white dwarf rules supplement.

There is also a specific set of Underdog tactic cards that cost 200 credits each instead of 100 credits each. But almost no one actually owns these cards.
 

almic85

Cranky Git
Tribe Council
Oct 30, 2014
1,805
3,066
163
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
As for changing your fighters armaments pre battle as others have said RAW it is not something you can do.

The reasoning is that even with the challenge mechanic around players the gangs themselves often don’t know who they are coming up against for the fight. It would be odd indeed if your gang being ambushed magically just remembered to bring their gas masks/ photogoggles / specialised chems picked out for just this very enemy. And then your opponent just also happens to have remembered that back in his stash he also has a bunch of stuff that would be suited to just this exact fight so he better run off and get it, you just wait there for a tick.

There is not a nice way to say it but your Escher need to carry their chems on them all the time for the chance to use them, just like my Orlock have to carry their gas masks with them just inc axe I fight Escher, and my photogoggles with me just in case I fight Delaque or Van Saar, and equip my fighters with hazard suits just in case I fight Cawdor.

What I can suggest though is that your leaders and champs have alternative builds where they carry different chems for different situations. It will increase your Gang Rating, but not your actual Crew Rating which is based on which fighters turn up to fight and is what is used to calaculate underdog bonuses in most currrent scenarios.

The downside is that if you end up with a random selection crew scenario that the wrong profile might turn up, but it is better to have a chance than not.
 

Barking Agatha

Ganger
Honored Tribesman
Jan 12, 2021
50
24
28
As for changing your fighters armaments pre battle as others have said RAW it is not something you can do.

The reasoning is that even with the challenge mechanic around players the gangs themselves often don’t know who they are coming up against for the fight. It would be odd indeed if your gang being ambushed magically just remembered to bring their gas masks/ photogoggles / specialised chems picked out for just this very enemy. And then your opponent just also happens to have remembered that back in his stash he also has a bunch of stuff that would be suited to just this exact fight so he better run off and get it, you just wait there for a tick.

Thanks. I do understand. I guess what bothers me is that this isn't just some extra wargear, it's the unique mechanic for House Escher. House of Chains, House of Iron, and House of Artifice all have unique mechanics that make them strong and unique, but House of Blades has this... thing, that is by no means bad, but kind of a pain to work with. It drains your credits, raises your rating, and often won't do anything. :(

There needs to be some kind of improvement to chem-alchemy. I don't know what it could be, but something.

There is not a nice way to say it but your Escher need to carry their chems on them all the time for the chance to use them, just like my Orlock have to carry their gas masks with them just inc axe I fight Escher, and my photogoggles with me just in case I fight Delaque or Van Saar, and equip my fighters with hazard suits just in case I fight Cawdor.

What I can suggest though is that your leaders and champs have alternative builds where they carry different chems for different situations. It will increase your Gang Rating, but not your actual Crew Rating which is based on which fighters turn up to fight and is what is used to calaculate underdog bonuses in most currrent scenarios.

The downside is that if you end up with a random selection crew scenario that the wrong profile might turn up, but it is better to have a chance than not.

That is a good idea! I had forgotten about Tools of the Trade.
 

JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
1,063
1,377
133
Saint-Petersburg, Russia
The reasoning is that even with the challenge mechanic around players the gangs themselves often don’t know who they are coming up against for the fight. It would be odd indeed if your gang being ambushed magically just remembered to bring their gas masks/ photogoggles / specialised chems picked out for just this very enemy. And then your opponent just also happens to have remembered that back in his stash he also has a bunch of stuff that would be suited to just this exact fight so he better run off and get it, you just wait there for a tick.
Thats why an Intelligence test is appropiate in my opinion. Your gang has gathered info that Delaque is after them. Or your fighter was smart enough to grab his photogoggles because he knew the layout of grid that allows to turn off the lights in that area. Intelligence stat gets no love anyway.
 

ntw3001

Gang Hero
Feb 17, 2011
1,162
1,948
118
34
Essex, UK
The reasoning is that even with the challenge mechanic around players the gangs themselves often don’t know who they are coming up against for the fight. It would be odd indeed if your gang being ambushed magically just remembered to bring their gas masks/ photogoggles / specialised chems picked out for just this very enemy. And then your opponent just also happens to have remembered that back in his stash he also has a bunch of stuff that would be suited to just this exact fight so he better run off and get it, you just wait there for a tick.

'Get down! It's an ambush!'

'Oh cool, who are we ambushing'