N18 Escher Chem-alchemy

Lord 83

Juve
Apr 22, 2022
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So I'm building my first Necromunda Gang, a House Escher one and I really like the Chem-alchemy mechanic, but I have a question:
Can I buy Elixirs when I found the gang? In the Chem-alchemy section it says "When an Escher gang visits the Trading Post during the post-battle sequence,..." so I would think I can't buy any until I have played at least one game. But that just seems like an arbitrary and weird limitation. Am I missing something?
 
Sadly I think you are interpreting correctly, and yes it is a weird (and annoying) limitation.

I’ve been tempted to house rule it in our group that Escher can buy some Chems at foundation (probably a limited number) but received push back previously so haven’t bothered since. Might re-fight that one…
 
It feels to me like the Escher chem rules need a rework in general.
I don't have enough experience playing with chems yet to be sure but it seems like they have been unnecessarily made less accessible to Escher. Perhaps they are just so good that they need to be very tightly controlled? Can a long time Escher player give some thoughts on this?

Literally the chem gang and they can't access chems right away and they have to continually buy them even though they are the ones manufacturing them, their toxin weapons are a poor early loadout choice because of this, making starting gangs either dull because you have to go for an effective roster with the standard gear or you lean into the toxin/gas gear and immediately put yourself at a fairly major disadvantage. And respirators are a cheap nerf to gas so anyone in a campaign with Escher can easily constrict your options for a handful of creds.

Being able to buy them right away would seem an obvious improvement. Escher being able to buy them much cheaper would seem logical as well.

Owning a chymist currently reduces the cost of buying chems but perhaps they could learn recipes in some way, giving you free access to a specific chem, or improving the potency of them?
On a similar thought, perhaps chemsynths can be upgraded to produce a specific chem in addition to the current potency boost, giving a character access to their favourite chem once per game?

Acidic could have a chance to destroy a respirator rather than just bypass it. (Seriously, giving everyone access to a 15CR item that basically turns off gas as an option is just frustrating!)
 
the escher chems are in isolation one of the weakest gang traits, however they also got death maidens who are nails, so as a gang they are okay.

their toxin weapons are a poor early loadout choice because of this
I dont understand this, their toxin weapons arent bad, they are identical to everyone elses, and they have easy access to chem synths as well. but anyway, thats a who different conversation.

(Seriously, giving everyone access to a 15CR item that basically turns off gas as an option is just frustrating!)
so you would spend...150 creds (and rating) so give you the ability to ignore... one, maybe 2 weapons? against a single enemy gang? Man, you must have some bad gangs, with the anti blaze armour (to counter cawdor), night vision (to counter delaque), gas masks (to counter escher), thats getting on for 50 creds per fighter, plus I guess you would want drop rigs to counter falling.

Yes, it can be countered, and yes, if you are in a 2 gang campaign, it sucks as the one opponant can list tailor. BUT, thats not feasible normally, and the only time I've seen such things is when there is a delaque gang running around turning the lights off that others have invested in night vision. Toxin has never caused that reaction that I've seen, or heard about.

Okay, all that aside, to the OP:

technically yeah, no chems at start as others ahve said, however its a marginal thing, personally I dont see the big deal with having them (and even hiring a hanger on) at gang creation. Personally I'd wait until you can get the chemist though, and then view the d3*10 creds she generates as your 'budget' for chems, that just keeps being what you can take in chems the following game. Nothing major, but some nice extra bits here and there.
 
Personally I'd wait until you can get the chemist though, and then view the d3*10 creds she generates as your 'budget' for chems,
Just checking if this was a typo on your behalf or the info from a previous version.

In the Second Printing of HoB the Clan Chymist can reduce the cost of Elixirs by D6x10 to a minimum of 10 creds. Rollable each time an elixir is purchased.

That’s pretty significant; a potential 60 creds discount would allow you to really build up a concoction which otherwise would be silly expensive and get it for 10 creds.
 
Just checking if this was a typo on your behalf or the info from a previous version.

In the Second Printing of HoB the Clan Chymist can reduce the cost of Elixirs by D6x10 to a minimum of 10 creds. Rollable each time an elixir is purchased.

That’s pretty significant; a potential 60 creds discount would allow you to really build up a concoction which otherwise would be silly expensive and get it for 10 creds.
The reduction has always been D6x10, the chymist also has fixer which is where the D3 comes from as a budget.
these 2 abilities combined means that the chymist can theoretically pay for herself in one game and is then generating money for you every game after that
 
The reduction has always been D6x10, the chymist also has fixer which is where the D3 comes from as a budget.
these 2 abilities combined means that the chymist can theoretically pay for herself in one game and is then generating money for you every game after that
Oh so it’s an f-ing skill, right, that got confusing there. I never even noticed she had one.
Now if it had said “…then view the d3*10 creds she generates from the fixer skill as your 'budget' for chems,” I’d get it, coz I just assumed it was the text on her page being referred to like a dopey bugger. 🤪

Incidentally, this is why I hate these “reference this other rule elsewhere” type of systems, it’s so easy to overlook or forget about them.

But I’m going to waggle my finger at GW for making me have to play “research the bibliography reference” rather than the actual game.

Apologies to @spafe for doubting you. I’m getting too old and lazy to remember all this stuff.
 
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Now if it had said “…then view the d3*10 creds she generates from the fixer skill as your 'budget' for chems,” I’d get it,
you're completely correct, i should have been clearer and referenced the skill.... Buuuuutttt, I couldnt remember what it was called! I was typing from work without my books so knew she generated her own cash, but havent got each skill name committed to memory. Jsut me being lazy and not checking online/elsewhere before typing.
 
So the process to buy chem alchemy is you have to have the credits first to buy the full price chem(combination or not)then you roll a dx6 x 10 for reduction with the apprentice clan chemist. Correct? This means your buying the chem no matter what and just get to see the reduction of price.

Ex: So a combination chem might be 60 creds and you have to have 60 creds to purchase then clan chemist reduces the price.

The method is not,You pick out a chem combination you like, then roll a d6 x 10 to see if you can afford it? Then not buy it if you cannot afford it...?
 
It feels to me like the Escher chem rules need a rework in general.
I don't have enough experience playing with chems yet to be sure but it seems like they have been unnecessarily made less accessible to Escher. Perhaps they are just so good that they need to be very tightly controlled? Can a long time Escher player give some thoughts on this?

Literally the chem gang and they can't access chems right away and they have to continually buy them even though they are the ones manufacturing them, their toxin weapons are a poor early loadout choice because of this, making starting gangs either dull because you have to go for an effective roster with the standard gear or you lean into the toxin/gas gear and immediately put yourself at a fairly major disadvantage. And respirators are a cheap nerf to gas so anyone in a campaign with Escher can easily constrict your options for a handful of creds.

Being able to buy them right away would seem an obvious improvement. Escher being able to buy them much cheaper would seem logical as well.

Owning a chymist currently reduces the cost of buying chems but perhaps they could learn recipes in some way, giving you free access to a specific chem, or improving the potency of them?
On a similar thought, perhaps chemsynths can be upgraded to produce a specific chem in addition to the current potency boost, giving a character access to their favourite chem once per game?

Acidic could have a chance to destroy a respirator rather than just bypass it. (Seriously, giving everyone access to a 15CR item that basically turns off gas as an option is just frustrating!)
As a long time Escher player the main beef I have with the Chem system is that it's so expensive and inaccessible without an expensive weapon and expensive hanger on, especially when compared to say Cawdor that get their house "ability" for free or Goliath that just pay once for powerful upgrades.

Imo the stimms are fine as they are but the gas and toxic ammunition should be a new profile with the limited and scarce trait. So you pay once, use it till it runs out and have to buy more.
 
A nice thing on chem alchemy is the trading it allows. You don't get that with other house traits. But you need players that actually want to buy the chems.
It's not allowed normally, it's an optional rule suggestion that an arbitrator may or may not permit.
 
  • Connected Trader: A Connected Trader has spent a lifetime building up a web of contacts they can use to move items. If a gang has a Connected Trader then once per post-battle sequence for each Connected Trader they control, they may double the credits they gain for selling items in their Stash. In addition, they may freely trade credits and items in their Stash with other gangs participating in the same campaign; note that both gangs must agree in order for a trade to happen.
The Underhive Trader hanger-on. But that doesn't suggest that the receiving gang will get access to the Administer Dose (Simple) action, the way the Escher do. They may be stuck using Use Chem (Simple) the way everyone else does? That limits users to fighters who can carry the wargear themselves, where Eschers can apply it to a willing fighter within a short range instead.
 
The Chemical Reign and Gifts of the Matron tactics cards go a long way to helping out in the early campaign. No credits, no planning ahead, and no increase to your gang rating (which is an unwanted side effect of carrying a lot of chems). I rarely take anything else when I can choose the cards.
 
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Ok get this. Get a chem alchemist. Then get a connected trader. Make a expensive chem, gas acidic (20)+ blackout(30)+ leaden(30) = 70 credits. Ideally roll a 6 with alchemist for reduction. You made the chem for 10 credits. Sell the chem from stash. Ideally you roll a 1 to reduce the chem by 10 credits when selling so the chem is 60 credits now. Connected trader turns that into 120 credits.

It's gambling but something might be there with that combo. I also provided the most ideal situation. It also kinda makes sense from a fluffy perspective that Escher would be selling chems.

So I guess in real practice, buy chems you were gunna want anyway. Obviously have the alchemist. If your able to reduce the chem by the max amount to 10 credits, consider selling the chem even without the connected trader. The worst that can happen is you lose 5 credits with the 1d6 x 10 reduction due to selling. Otherwise your going to gain some credits or break even. The connected trader makes you lose zero money or doubles your profits.

Do we know if the connected trader double price before the -1d6 x10 reduction in price or after? Does it matter?

I think this is how you fuel chem alchemy.
 
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Ok get this. Get a chem alchemist. Then get a connected trader. Make a expensive chem, gas acidic (20)+ blackout(30)+ leaden(30) = 70 credits. Ideally roll a 6 with alchemist for reduction. You made the chem for 10 credits. Sell the chem from stash. Ideally you roll a 1 to reduce the chem by 10 credits when selling so the chem is 60 credits now. Connected trader turns that into 120 credits.
To clarify, you're talking about getting an UnderHive Trader with the type Connected Trader (from Book of the Outcast, page 36), which allows you to trade with other gangs in the campaign and also double the price you sell the items at.

As usual when combining the effects of two Hangers-On (published across two books), things get powerful quick.
It's gambling but something might be there with that combo. I also provided the most ideal situation. It also kinda makes sense from a fluffy perspective that Escher would be selling chems.

So I guess in real practice, buy chems you were gunna want anyway. Obviously have the alchemist. If your able to reduce the chem by the max amount to 10 credits, consider selling the chem even without the connected trader. The worst that can happen is you lose 5 credits with the 1d6 x 10 reduction due to selling. Otherwise your going to gain some credits or break even. The connected trader makes you lose zero money or doubles your profits.

Do we know if the connected trader double price before the -1d6 x10 reduction in price or after?
It'd be after the 1D6x10 deduction, because the bonus applies to the price you sell at "they may double the credits they gain for selling items in their Stash (once per post-game sequence)". They allow you to double the gain, not doubling the value of the items then reducing the value for sale.

You're only to do the action once per post-game sequence per Underhive Trader Connected Trader, so it'd be one item type getting that benefit per action (presumably you'd be able to sell batches of the same item, if you have multiples lying around). Having a second trader lets you do it for a second batch, which would presumably pay for itself after one cycle.
Does it matter?
Yes, because 40 credit item value reduced on sale by 1D6x10 (minimum 5 credits value baseline) could sell for the following rates:
D6 Result 1x10: 40 credit item value reduced to 30 credits = 60 credits (sale value doubled)
D6 Result 2x10: 40 credit item value reduced to 20 credits = 40 credits (sale value doubled)
D6 Result 3x10: 40 credit item value reduced to 10 credits = 20 credits (sale value doubled)
D6 Result 4x10, 5x10, 6x10: 40 credit item value reduced to 5 credits = 10 credits (sale value doubled)

Versus table if you doubled value before reduction at sale:
D6 Result 1x10: 40 credit revalued to 80 credits reduced to 70 sale value
D6 Result 2x10: 40 credit revalued to 80 credits reduced to 60 sale value
D6 Result 3x10: 40 credit revalued to 80 credits reduced to 50 sale value
D6 Result 4x10: 40 credit revalued to 80 credits reduced to 40 sale value
D6 Result 5x10: 40 credit revalued to 80 credits reduced to 30 sale value
D6 Result 6x10: 40 credit revalued to 80 credits reduced to 20 sale value

Very different outcomes, second set is obviously not intended - no-one is selling a 40 credit gas ammo for 70 credits when there are identical gas ammos in the trader's mat one stall over going for 40 credits. Which is why the rule says double the credits they gain for selling items in their Stash, not double the value then sell.

Obviously, 100 credit items (like plasma guns) which reduce to 40-90 credits but then sell for 80-180 credits are likely to be more useful for this skill.

But you can't purchase items directly from your House list and place them into the Stash - they have to be equipped to a fighter. Purchased Trading Post items are placed in stash when purchased. Escher Chem-alchemy is meant to be part of the House List and obtained during the Purchase Equipment phase (and thus allocated to a fighter), although does have a reference to the items being removed from Stash when used - looks like an editing error as otherwise the House list and no-trading post needed aspect would not make sense.

But the "sticky weapons and mount" rule which almost everyone ignores wouldn't apply, as chems aren't weapons or a mount, so there'd be nothing stopping you purchasing and then placing chems into the stash (sister-purchaser must not like the smell of that Stimm, let's sell it)!
I think this is how you fuel chem alchemy.
I think that is how you would be playing for the narrative outcome of being the chem-dealing gang that makes profits.

As noted above, you're probably going to find selling special and heavy guns to be more profitable than chems in terms of sheer reliable sale value vs risk and possible turnover . Value pre-sale maxes out at 75 for Stimms, 85 for Gas ammo, and 45 for Toxic Ammo - though the offset from the Apprentice Chymist improves the margins for sale.
That said, getting the relevant Rare trade rolls to purchase special and heavy weapons straight to Stash might be unreliable too. As mentioned above, you'd only get the sale markup once per post game action for one item set unless you're doubling up on Traders, sacrificing a slot allowing access to Rogue Docs (not really a problem for Escher), Bullet Merchants (oh no!) and Brutes (meh).

RAW your opponents also have to agree to purchase from you, and if that market dries up your Arbitrator may decide that one of your rivals has put word around that your chems are tainted and NPCs may stop buying from you...
 
Escher Chem-alchemy is meant to be part of the House List
This part is complex.

Escher Chem-Alchemy chems are very explicitly NOT part of the House List. Venators do not get access to them, for example, despite House Legacy. They are also explicitly YES a part of the House List. Sigh. The trouble all comes from these two sentences that follow one after the other, and are opposed in meaning:

When an Escher gang visits the Trading Post during the post-battle sequence, they can buy a Chem-alchemy Elixir in the Purchase Equipment step. Chem-alchemy Elixirs are considered to be part of the gang’s House Equipment List, and so do not require a Seek Rare Equipment roll to be purchased.
-- House of Blades p.93=
So chem-alchemy chems are bought from the Trading Post, not from the House list. Also, Chem-Alchemy chems are bought from the House list, and not the Trading Post.

Making them House List and not Trading Post adds a number of complications.
1. Can they not then be bought before the first scenario?
2. Venators should be able to buy them through House Legacy (Escher)?
3. They cannot be put in the Stash since they come from the House List, but need to be added to the gang's stash when purchased according to their rules?
 
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Don't they also sell a lot the Van Saar and the Goliath? That will goes against the idea that they are part of the house list lore wise at least.